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Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
BigBango
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by BigBango » October 29th, 2018, 10:15 pm

RJG wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 8:56 pm
BigBango wrote:Please, there are so many problems with applying logic to reality.
BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.

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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG » October 29th, 2018, 10:59 pm

RJG wrote:BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
BigBango wrote:Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.
Is this reasoning based on logic?

BigBango
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by BigBango » October 29th, 2018, 11:42 pm

RJG wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 10:59 pm
RJG wrote:BigBango, if you can't reason with 'logic', then your views are nothing more than just feel-good fairy tales. For without logic, ...'ANYTHING' is possible!
BigBango wrote:Actually logic has its problems even as an abstract product of mind.

There is little doubt that one could deduce anything close to the truth of reality without first establishing one's metaphysical principles.
Is this reasoning based on logic?
No, not really. This reasoning is based on our ability to intuit or imagine what is fundamentally true of reality. As Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge. Once we have these ideas about the nature of existents then we can reason about them with logic as our tool for furthering our ideas.

devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » October 30th, 2018, 4:34 am

BigBango wrote:
October 29th, 2018, 8:06 pm
In fact, all the paradoxes that you brought up about infinity are just different versions of Zeno's paradox about motion.
Thanks for the feedback!

I would mention there was a second class of paradox I listed; things without a start are paradoxical like Eternity or (negative) infinity. So one example was:

The counting paradox
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?

Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Belindi » October 30th, 2018, 5:52 am

I seek information.

Is infinity 'shaped' like a straight line without beginning or end, or is infinity 'shaped' like the circumference of a circle?

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » October 30th, 2018, 6:33 am

We'd just be guessing.

devans99
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » October 30th, 2018, 6:44 am

Belindi wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 5:52 am
I seek information.

Is infinity 'shaped' like a straight line without beginning or end, or is infinity 'shaped' like the circumference of a circle?
Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.

Time is a finite circle with past present and future all existing. Everything repeats itself.

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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG » October 30th, 2018, 7:51 am

Devans99 wrote:Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.
Does the impossibility of "walking on water" mean the existence of water is impossible?

Does the impossibility of "counting from infinity" mean the existence of infinity is impossible?

Your conclusion "Anything without a start cannot exist" is not logically valid.

Devans99 wrote:Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.
To the contrary, this means numbers continue infinitely.

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » October 30th, 2018, 9:00 am

RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 7:51 am
Devans99 wrote:Because Eternity (in time) has no start, the being is unable to start counting hence the paradox. Anything without a start cannot exist.
Your conclusion "Anything without a start cannot exist" is not logically valid.
I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example

RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 7:51 am
Devans99 wrote:Infinity does not exist; there is no number X such that X > all other numbers because X+1>X.
To the contrary, this means numbers continue infinitely.
Yes that's a potential infinity. I'm not disputing the potential infinities; its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by Eduk » October 30th, 2018, 9:12 am

I have an image of a Greek style tragedy where our protagonist is blind folded and placed in a vast desert. All they need to do to escape is walk in a straight line but they have no way to ensure that they are walking in a straight line.
Unknown means unknown.

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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG » October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am

Devans99 wrote:I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example.
Devans, it doesn't matter if it is real or not, it is the logic (the math) that is flawed/invalid. The "anything real without a start cannot exist" conclusion still does not logically follow from "counting from infinity is impossible".

Devans99 wrote:...its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.
There is NO valid logic that draws this conclusion.

Devans99 wrote:The counting paradox:
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?
The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
Therefore, oo (infinity) is the answer!

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » October 30th, 2018, 11:05 am

RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:I should have said 'Anything real without a start cannot exist'. Care to give a counter-example.
Devans, it doesn't matter if it is real or not, it is the logic (the math) that is flawed/invalid. The "anything real without a start cannot exist" conclusion still does not logically follow from "counting from infinity is impossible".
Things are defined by their start. Take away your birth, you would not exist. Take away Monday and the rest of the week does not exist. Take away the start of time and time does not exist. It's logically impossible for something real to not have a start.



RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:...its the existence of actual infinity which is impossible.
There is NO valid logic that draws this conclusion.
The existence of an actually infinite set is impossible, its like the largest number - and I just proved that does not exist.

An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 10:54 am
Devans99 wrote:The counting paradox:
- Say you meet an Eternal being in your Eternal universe
- You notice he is counting
- You ask and he says ‘I’ve always been counting’
- What number is he on?
The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
oo (infinity) is the answer.
He's been counting so he must be on an actual number. He can't be on infinity because it's impossible to count to infinity - no matter how long you count you never reach infinity.

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RJG
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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG » October 30th, 2018, 1:55 pm

Devans99 wrote:An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
"Matter has always existed" is fully defined. It is only the indoctrinated human mind that thinks that things 'must' have a start.

RJG wrote:The answer/solution to this paradox is ...[drumroll please]... oo (infinity!)

Reasoning:
If this being started 100 counts ago, then he would be at 100 right now.
If he started X counts ago, then he would be at X right now.
If he started oo counts ago, then he would be at oo right now.
oo (infinity) is the answer.
Devans99 wrote:He's been counting so he must be on an actual number. He can't be on infinity because it's impossible to count to infinity - no matter how long you count you never reach infinity.
The author of this paradox relies on us being conned into first believing that "always counting" is actually possible. "Always counting" is as self-contradictory (logically impossible) as are "married bachelors" and "square circles".

"Always" implies 'no' starting point, and "counting" implies a starting point. These are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) terms. If we wish to play the author's game, then we throw the "always" (infinity) element back at him in our response, as I have done.

Devans99 wrote:...because it's impossible to count to infinity...
...and it's also impossible to count 'from' infinity. "Always counting" is impossible.


"Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite."
--- Karpel Tunnel

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by devans99 » October 30th, 2018, 2:10 pm

RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 1:55 pm
Devans99 wrote:An actually infinite set has no end which is not allowed for real objects. Real things have to be fully defined; you can't just leave one end nebulous.
"Matter has always existed" is fully defined. It is only the indoctrinated human mind that thinks that things 'must' have a start.
Matter had a temporal start in the Big Bang.

RJG wrote:
October 30th, 2018, 1:55 pm

This author of this paradox relies on us being conned into first believing that "always counting" is actually possible. "Always counting" is as self-contradictory (logically impossible) as are "married bachelors" and "square circles".

"Always" implies 'no' starting point, and "counting" implies a starting point. These are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) terms. If we wish to play the author's game, then we throw the "always" (infinity) element back at him in our response, as I have done.


"Cut infinity in two and each 'half' is still infinite."
--- Karpal
Always counting is implying no more than always existing, which is possible. Imagine an eternal being; he would have no start in time so could never exist. Being is possible we therefore conclude Eternal (in time) is not.

Always means Eternally IE its impossible as it has no starting point so you cannot do anything with it because it is undefined. You cannot begin to count, begin to exist, the universe cannot begin to exist; none of these are possible with Eternity (in time) as it has no starting point.

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Re: Did the universe exist for ever or does it have a beginning?

Post by RJG » October 30th, 2018, 3:03 pm

Devans99 wrote:Matter had a temporal start in the Big Bang.
Did someone tell you this? So then 'what' banged? Was it 'nothing' or 'something'?

Devans99 wrote:Always counting is implying no more than always existing, which is possible.
Counting REQUIRES a start point (i.e. a "0"), ...Existing does not.

Devans99 wrote:Imagine an eternal being; he would have no start in time so could never exist.
...or he could 'always' exist, it's one or the other, ...right?

With no starting point, that which doesn't exist can NEVER exist, and that which does exist has ALWAYS existed, ...agreed?

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