Brain workings and freedom

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 26th, 2018, 1:05 pm

I'll see you tomorrow at 8.
Why are you here now I'm having dinner? What's wrong with you?
Unknown means unknown.

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Present awareness
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness » May 26th, 2018, 1:53 pm

I’m still here and it is still now! Why I’m here and why it is now, suggests they may be a reason for it, but it is just as likely there is no reason whatsoever. Sorry for ruining your dinner. I realize this line of discussion is off topic so will refrain from further comment. Do we control the brain, or does the brain control us, is a question which assumes there are two things, us and our brain. The very act of thinking, produces all forms of duality, the thinker and that which is thought about. Which comes first, the thought or the thinking about the thought? We do not have the freedom to control our thoughts but we have the freedom to allow our thoughts to arise and fall, as they always will, and observe them with a detached frame of mind.
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Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 26th, 2018, 2:04 pm

mild schizophrenia can be achieved simply by considering, carefully, who is thinking (and so on). But still unknown = unknown. Once you do know, prove it, and make some kind of dualism computer or energy source and become super mega rich and famous, I wish you the best. Until that point I'm going to assume you know as much as anyone else.
Unknown means unknown.

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Present awareness
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness » May 26th, 2018, 11:23 pm

Eduk wrote:
May 26th, 2018, 2:04 pm
mild schizophrenia can be achieved simply by considering, carefully, who is thinking (and so on). But still unknown = unknown. Once you do know, prove it, and make some kind of dualism computer or energy source and become super mega rich and famous, I wish you the best. Until that point I'm going to assume you know as much as anyone else.
My philosophy is not based on knowlege. I know enough to know that I don’t know anything at all. There is nothing to prove to anyone. I believe that all philosophers should base their beliefs on their own experiences because when it comes down to it, you are all you’ve got!
I may be right or I may be wrong, and it matters not, for it is simply a way of looking at things. “If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change” Wayne Dyer!
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Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 27th, 2018, 4:41 am

Yes the thing is I have my philosophy that nature appears to be consistent, is testable and considering the alternatives I act as if that is more or less correct with, of course, the understanding that new evidence my arise to disprove some of those assumptions.
You seem to think reality is whatever you make of it. Implying all kinds of things which would lead to existential issues such as I believe I can fly.
However in action we are the same, or close enough. Neither of us has stood on a high cliff and thought we could fly (for example).
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Present awareness
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness » May 27th, 2018, 9:30 am

Eduk wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 4:41 am
Yes the thing is I have my philosophy that nature appears to be consistent, is testable and considering the alternatives I act as if that is more or less correct with, of course, the understanding that new evidence my arise to disprove some of those assumptions.
You seem to think reality is whatever you make of it. Implying all kinds of things which would lead to existential issues such as I believe I can fly.
However in action we are the same, or close enough. Neither of us has stood on a high cliff and thought we could fly (for example).
Sounds like you have a solid and correct way of looking at things, Eduk! I don’t believe a person can change reality by the way they think, since reality, is as it is. Take the glass that is half full, or half empty, depending on how you think about it. The glass itself remains the same but the attitude towards the glass is different. Whether one is optimistic or pessimistic about a situation, does not change the facts, however, it has been proven in medicine for example, that the placebo effect is very real and that a persons belief that a certain drug is helping them, does in fact, help them in many cases.
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Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 27th, 2018, 9:55 am

The placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
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Present awareness
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Present awareness » May 27th, 2018, 10:20 am

Eduk wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 9:55 am
The placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
The power of belief and it’s effect on brain workings and freedom, should not be underestimated. It may play a small role in medicine, but it does play a role, nevertheless. Things are as they are and no amount of wishing they were different, will change that, but ones attitude towards what happens in life, does make a difference.
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Felix
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Felix » May 28th, 2018, 3:45 am

Eduk: The placebo effect is small.
Not at all, and the proof of this is that it can work in reverse, i.e., it's been found that giving people an actual drug while telling them that it's merely a placebo with no medicinal value, can dramatically reduce or even cancel out the efficacy of the drug.

See: http://www.emedexpert.com/tips/placebo.shtml
For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer.
It's not just a matter of positive thinking, visualization and biofeedback techniques have been shown to bolster immune defenses - and alleviate pain.
That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
Well, one should be careful about what placebo one chooses, some have a better track record than others. :wink:
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 28th, 2018, 4:17 am

As I said it's pernicious. I recommend typing in placebo and science based medicine. There is an article about harnessing the power of placebo which goes into some detail.
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chewybrian
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by chewybrian » May 28th, 2018, 6:30 am

Eduk wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 9:55 am
The placebo effect is small. For example no amount of placebo effect will reattach a severed arm. Actually this belief that belief has a huge role to play in health is pernicious. For example you will often hear/read people talking about 'fighting' cancer. That's wonderful but what then is the conclusion if you happen to die? That you were weak mentally? That you just didn't want it enough?
Present awareness wrote:
May 27th, 2018, 10:20 am
The power of belief and it’s effect on brain workings and freedom, should not be underestimated. It may play a small role in medicine, but it does play a role, nevertheless. Things are as they are and no amount of wishing they were different, will change that, but ones attitude towards what happens in life, does make a difference.
I think you are both right. The placebo effect is only a tiny glimpse into something much more important. Attitude is not medicine, but in the end, it could be more helpful most of the time (when you haven't actually severed your arm).

When I read "The Enchiridion", I knew right off my life would be better as a result. I could feel anger and resentment diminishing word by word. Your interpretation of events affects their impact on you. It's not that often that so many bad things happen to us, as much as we take them as bad things when they are neutral (or might even turn out to be useful if we quit whining and pay attention). It's the wishing that allows events to be so crushing in the first place. Grounding your perceptions in reality makes progress smoother and simpler.

The 'placebo effect' is real but not material. Changing attitude can change latitude, though. Your interpretation of events is a huge deal.

Eduk
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Eduk » May 28th, 2018, 6:46 am

Your attitude obviously plays a massive effect in your life. Not sure it's fair to lump all attitude under placebo effect though? Interestingly the article I suggested reading talks through that exact problem about what the placebo effect actually is.
For example a patient who is receiving good medical care and trusts they are receiving good medical care is in the sweet spot. A patient who is receiving good medical care but doesn't trust that care is suboptimal. They will do fine with curing cancer or mending a broken arm but humans are complex and they may decide to stop using the good medical care in favour of a multitude of Quakery. Of course at that point they become a patient receiving poor medical care but trusting the poor medical care. This is the worst situation so far and causes people and families untold damage.
So modern medicine could make an argument that they should trick people into trusting good medical care. Which is machevallian in my book and likely to backfire.
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi » May 28th, 2018, 1:06 pm

The more is understood about how medics do their work, placebos and all, the more we the patients gain power for ourselves.

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LuckyR
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by LuckyR » May 29th, 2018, 4:43 am

Well there is data to show that the most satisfied patients did somewhat worse than some less satisfied patients. The effect was felt to be due to docs doing what their patients wanted, instead of what the docs felt they needed.
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Re: Brain workings and freedom

Post by Belindi » May 29th, 2018, 6:17 am

LuckyR wrote:
May 29th, 2018, 4:43 am
Well there is data to show that the most satisfied patients did somewhat worse than some less satisfied patients. The effect was felt to be due to docs doing what their patients wanted, instead of what the docs felt they needed.
Yes. I do support patient power as a general rule. But ideally the medics should take the time adequately to inform patients. There isn't the time in a 10 minute consultation to do so.
In the absence of adequate information it's perhaps the next best thing for medics to retain authoritative mystique. One bad effect of medics' conceding to what ignorant patients want is that medics prescribe unnecessary antibiotics to please them and make them go away satisfied.

The freedom that education of patients brings is costly and can be adequately provided only by a socialist state.

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