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Non-Duality is terrifying

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Tosen
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Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Tosen » May 6th, 2018, 10:35 pm

I begin by saying that possibly not everyone will understand this, because of the complexity of putting to words non-dual ideas by dualistic ideas (Language). Understand that proposing a separation between Duality and Non-duality is already a dualistic notion of the mind. So bear with me the complexity of the matter, and sorry if I contradict myself in anyway.

I just truly discovered this notion of "wholeness", "unity" or "oneness" from non-duality. This idea is very frightening for me, because it collapses my experience of reality. Awareness is all that there is, every other thing is a mind-created concept. I will not explain non-duality in depth and the big metaphysical implications of it as it is still a very fresh idea that is nurturing my mind. I will just ponder of the ideas that have entered my mind, and are intelligible as of now. So, Non-Duality is awareness itself. There is no separation of ego/thought or object/subject. Precisely because experience is all it is, and experience IS consciousness. There is no experiential state if there is no awareness, therefore "being" is all there truly is. This is without having this "I" that is assumed to be doing the experiencing. For some this mystical ego-transcendence is beautiful, because of the divine nature of it(How this pure state of awareness feels). And also because it is the ultimate truth. It is the true nature of nature. Duality is the greatest enemy to non-duality (Obviously). But get this, in order to reach non-duality you MUST purge the duality of the mind. So, having a firmly dualistic mind will not comprehend this in any way. Because non-duality is experienced, it is not known by a rational explanation. For the explanation of it is dualistic in nature, because language is dualistic and always implies separation. People engage in meditation to reach this perceptual change of awareness.

My biggest fear is knowing that everything I have experienced up until now has been an illusion. A product of the mind's intrinsic tendency to dualism. Everything seems false, nothing is real. Truth is just one. Up until now my philosophical "truths"(Or any thought of that matter) have been dualistic. So, I reach some sort of existential crisis or nihilistic crisis in nature. Not only that, but all of my dreams, hopes, my personal realizations are far from truth. Any meaning becomes meaningless. It is not worth living for something at it is just a concept, a construct of the mind that separates me and true reality. In a crude way, it is all fake. I can't even think without separation so it troubles me more.

I seem to be on the brink of death speaking about these troubling thoughts. For now, everything seems bearable. But I don't know where I will end up if this destroys me. Any thoughts to this?

Namelesss
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 7th, 2018, 1:04 am

Tosen wrote:
May 6th, 2018, 10:35 pm
I just truly discovered this notion of "wholeness", "unity" or "oneness" from non-duality. This idea is very frightening for me,

True enough! All 'fear' exists in thought/ego/duality.
Notions and ideas are still duality.
Thought cannot encompass, cannot bind with (conditions) definition and limits, the transcendental (unconditional) Omni- One!

because it collapses my experience of reality. Awareness
Perhaps one day this will become your actual experience/Knowledge (rather than 'notions' and 'ideas')... Enlightenment!
is all that there is, every other thing is a mind-created concept.

Is Mind. True. From rocks to daydreams, all Mindstuff.
Make-believe!!
The definition of insanity, in a 'make-believe' Universe, is to 'believe'!
I seem to be on the brink of death speaking about these troubling thoughts. For now, everything seems bearable. But I don't know where I will end up if this destroys me. Any thoughts to this?
Imagination can be quite frightening! The more that thought is let run, the deeper into the suffering one finds oneself!
Have you tried 'not thinking'? Doing away with all that drama?!
(Recommend Zen (thoughtless) meditation) *__-

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » May 7th, 2018, 1:38 am

Hello, just been browsing around, I don't really intend to comment on this forum too, except maybe on the topic of nondualism. :)

If you ask me, if you're a down-to-Earth person (and not some kind of crazy, socially dysfunctional, spiritually addicted hermit), then after going through the nondual awakening process (which can take months or years), what is left is to go back to the illusion, go back to living the dream. But we will always know deep down that this is, in a way, roleplaying. Once we see reality for what it is, we can't unsee it.

Imo this is actually the "best of both worlds". We gain the nondual insight/experience, we understand what we really are, and then some of the ego happens to be rebuilt, the illusions of separation and dualistic thinking get somewhat rebuilt and so on, and we return to that dream of separation almost everyone else is having. ("I" pretend again, or it is pretended again, that "I" am this separate "I". "I" buy into this illusion again / this illusion is bought into again.) The nondual understanding contains the dualistic understanding, so we can go back to a primarily dualistic everyday existence if we want to.

This seems to be almost necessarily in the West, since almost all people here live their entire lives as clueless, half-insane sleepwalkers here, wondering what the hell consciousness could be. So nondualists are almost forced to adopt a "mental double life".

And well, yeah, there's the problem of meaning. How does a nondualist experience meaning? Personally I found no truly genuine solution to this problem; at some point I've simply decided to keep putting meaning into things, until I started to experience them as meaningful again. This seems to work for me, but I know that an some level I'm tricking myself (and that on another level, there is no "myself" either). But in the end it doesn't really matter.

Tosen
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Tosen » May 9th, 2018, 8:50 pm

Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 1:38 am
Hello, just been browsing around, I don't really intend to comment on this forum too, except maybe on the topic of nondualism. :)

If you ask me, if you're a down-to-Earth person (and not some kind of crazy, socially dysfunctional, spiritually addicted hermit), then after going through the nondual awakening process (which can take months or years), what is left is to go back to the illusion, go back to living the dream. But we will always know deep down that this is, in a way, roleplaying. Once we see reality for what it is, we can't unsee it.

Imo this is actually the "best of both worlds". We gain the nondual insight/experience, we understand what we really are, and then some of the ego happens to be rebuilt, the illusions of separation and dualistic thinking get somewhat rebuilt and so on, and we return to that dream of separation almost everyone else is having. ("I" pretend again, or it is pretended again, that "I" am this separate "I". "I" buy into this illusion again / this illusion is bought into again.) The nondual understanding contains the dualistic understanding, so we can go back to a primarily dualistic everyday existence if we want to.

This seems to be almost necessarily in the West, since almost all people here live their entire lives as clueless, half-insane sleepwalkers here, wondering what the hell consciousness could be. So nondualists are almost forced to adopt a "mental double life".

And well, yeah, there's the problem of meaning. How does a nondualist experience meaning? Personally I found no truly genuine solution to this problem; at some point I've simply decided to keep putting meaning into things, until I started to experience them as meaningful again. This seems to work for me, but I know that an some level I'm tricking myself (and that on another level, there is no "myself" either). But in the end it doesn't really matter.
I see you have been indulging on these matters. Practically speaking, does this "enlightenment" benefit you in your daily life? One experiences the true mystical nature of being, but knowing what you said about "going back to the dream/illusion", doesn't one feel divided? Disoriented? Like a sort of dissociation with reality? I ask because I find quite marvelous the thought of reverting back from "oneness" to "separation", like going through phases and being able to live with this transcendental experiential state.

I know that for other mystics there is nothing to fear of non-duality. But for me it penetrates the fundamental notions I have of anything. So in my case it's more about knowledge and how I have been a deep thinker for a long time. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for the reply!

Tosen
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Tosen » May 9th, 2018, 9:04 pm

Namelesss wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 1:04 am
Imagination can be quite frightening! The more that thought is let run, the deeper into the suffering one finds oneself!
Have you tried 'not thinking'? Doing away with all that drama?!
(Recommend Zen (thoughtless) meditation) *__-
Thoughts/Imagination are indeed scary if "I" keep fabricating them (Duality) hehe. Now I ask you this, how has your life changed after this enlightenment? Do you feel at peace? How do you feel over other people that have no conceptualization of this mystical revelation? Enlightened folks walk the path of truth, how do they see others that have not become non-dual? These are just very practical questions. My inquiry goes directly to the life of the enlightened. Thanks for the reply!

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » May 10th, 2018, 1:25 am

Tosen wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 8:50 pm
I see you have been indulging on these matters. Practically speaking, does this "enlightenment" benefit you in your daily life? One experiences the true mystical nature of being, but knowing what you said about "going back to the dream/illusion", doesn't one feel divided? Disoriented? Like a sort of dissociation with reality? I ask because I find quite marvelous the thought of reverting back from "oneness" to "separation", like going through phases and being able to live with this transcendental experiential state.

I know that for other mystics there is nothing to fear of non-duality. But for me it penetrates the fundamental notions I have of anything. So in my case it's more about knowledge and how I have been a deep thinker for a long time. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks for the reply!
I'll try my best, it's such a difficult topic to write about. :) I can't really write about these things in some logical order yet.

Imo: "awakening"/"enlightenment" is one of the most overrated and misunderstood things ever, and it doesn't actually change all that much. It's not "really" transcendental, and there is, strictly speaking, no extra thing to experience. However, unlike the thousands of made up delusional belief systems, this is the one thing that's actually real. A proper Eastern nondual understanding also automatically solves like 2/3 of all major Western philosophical problems, and is the only worldview I know of that is perfectly compatible with all of modern science (including/"especially" QM and neuroscience). And it solves/collapses the Hard problem of consciousness too, something that is by definition insoluble in the dualistic Western philosophy. (Btw unlike most people, I primarily reached the nondual state by pondering science, I didn't really expect it.)

But most gurus will say that it is a state of pure bliss / pure love, and that's not true at all, it has basically nothing to do with that. And in some aspects awakening is indeed quite terrifying, just as you say. Especially when having to realize that the individual self/"I"/ego is quite illusory, and death is the end of the individual self. And when you ask these gurus how to apply this understanding to our everyday lives, they will say "well that's the question you shouldn't ask". I don't think that's good enough, maybe those gurus are old, antisocial and lost in some kind of blissful psychosis, pretending to love everyone, including the evil people, but most ordinary people will have to go on with their lives.

So we should try to somehow integrate the awake state into the everyday experience. Overall I'd say with awakening, more is gained than what is lost, the net result is positive. Maybe not for everyone, but I think it's safe to say that it's positive for the vast majority. Once we understand reality as it is, the mistery of life and death gets basically solved, we understand eternity, infinity, that in a sense there is immortality, even though this human will still die.

Awakening is the end of the spiritual search because we have realized our true nature. I think the biggest practical benefit is that this realization gives you this absolute certainty about some fundamental aspects of existence. In a sense it's like suddenly going home; it ends the sense of alienation, of being lost, not understanding what life is, what is going on. It may be a little boring and disappointing that this is how things are, but it's very calming, very pleasant. Some major existential frustrations simply cease, and maybe a few smaller ones are born. Now I wrote that it has nothing to do with some kind of pure bliss, however there is usually indeed a lot of sudden bliss after awakening, and even after that diminishes, I think we end up in a generally more content, somewhat more blissful permanent state than before. Another unexpected upside is that in this state, I seem to understand animals better; they are naturally in a state similar to this, since they never really developed egos in the first place. And of course we develop a much bigger appreciation for nature, for the biosphere, but only to see that others continue to destroy it.

The problem in Western cultures is however that if you speak about your realization, most people will probably try to put a white jacket on you. Almost no one will ever understand. Developing the "mental double life" can indeed be rather difficult, disorienting, feel a little divided, but it's better than simply being seen as crazy so...

Besides non-separation goes "both ways"; for example it also means that you aren't really separate from Stalin either. Non-separation is more like how the world technically works, but doesn't have many direct consequences for everyday life.

Returning to dividing reality into distinct, separate "things", people, realms etc. is very practical, useful, simple, except now you know that that's not truly how things really are, while others are lost in the illusion.

So you see overall I'd say it has more things going for it than against it, so it's not all that terrifying. I've been commenting on another philosophy forum for the last few months, to see if anyone could come up with a single valid counterargument against nondualism, whether philosophical or scientific, and as I expected there wasn't a single one. It's also the simplest worldview. It seem to be the right one to me. Personally I'm also a multiversist and also pick the MWI interpretation of QM, and the way I understand it these are 100% compatible with nondualism too.

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Greta » May 10th, 2018, 2:26 am

I think the most terrifying thing is looking out into space and realising that that, for the most part, is reality - this yawning near-void filled with things that would kill you. Here we are, little fragile Flatlanders hugging the increasingly disordered surface of one planet, with the yawning hungry cosmos poised to take us all back. To the perspective of life, the universe is like an engine room - necessary but not somewhere to live.

In the face of this, if everything was actually an illusion, perhaps that would be comforting?

On the plus side, the tireless, courageous and innovative work of our ancestors has provided us with civilisation, which provides at least some buffer against overpowering natural forces.

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 10th, 2018, 3:46 am

Tosen wrote:
May 9th, 2018, 9:04 pm
Namelesss wrote:
May 7th, 2018, 1:04 am
Imagination can be quite frightening! The more that thought is let run, the deeper into the suffering one finds oneself!
Have you tried 'not thinking'? Doing away with all that drama?!
(Recommend Zen (thoughtless) meditation) *__-
Thoughts/Imagination are indeed scary if "I" keep fabricating them (Duality) hehe.
From whence come 'thought/ego/duality'?
Do we 'fabricate' them?
Now I ask you this, how has your life changed after this enlightenment?
In innumerable ways!
For one, what sane person would harm Self, deliberately?
The entire Universe is Self!
Thus my 'relationship with others, with the environment, who I see in the mirror, all myriad aspects, have become Loved, rather than adversaries.
All adversaries are Self! All Love is Self Love! *__-
Life is so different, but I already am starting to feel awkward as, I do not take any credit for anything, and this is sounding like blowing my own horn, but 'life' (and 'death') mean entirely different things now that I have experienced both.
The Tao is the leveler of all things.
All 'dualities', all 'dramas' resolve in this 'Middle Way, halfway between all Perspectives! *__-
Another 'benefit/Sidhi' is the ability to enjoy 'psy', such as 'time travel' and 'remote viewing' (see; 'Sidhis'), as just two examples.
Do you feel at peace?

There is a constant flickering show flashing before our perception, when there is a 'feeling' passing by, we perceive it. Watch it come, explore it, be Mindful of it, watch it pass.
Sometimes those passing feelings are 'peaceful'. Sometimes painful...
Beneath the 'passing parade' is the transcendental Reality, the unconditional Love/Enlightenment.

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS Known by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

This is the 'substrate' upon which the passing thoughts/feelings pass. These 'Virtues'.
Happiness is among them, but 'peace' is more of a 'feeling/thought' (feelings are thoughts).
I know (experience) this as I remain(ed) a Happy, Loving person, even under torture.
One never loses this condition, even when agitated, stressed, in pain, blissed, whatever the 'conditions', the 'unconditional' remains unaffected!
How do you feel over other people that have no conceptualization of this mystical revelation?

Through the eye of Love, (t)here is only the Beloved!
The ego 'pities', it is (conditional) Compassion Dark.
Interestingly, in a couple hundred years, "there will be no more religion!
We will all be mystics, or we will not be!"
Enlightened folks walk the path of truth, how do they see others that have not become non-dual?

Again, in unconditional Love!
'Reality/Truth' is ALL inclusive!
Every unique Perspective, no matter how 'shallow', no matter how 'unique', is absolutely essential for complete Self! Knowledge!

"The complete Universe (Reality/Truth/God/'Self!'/Tao/Brahman... or any feature herein...) can be completely defined/described as the synchronous sum-total of all Perspectives!" - Book of Fudd
ALL INCLUSIVE!!!

One can get into trouble if one mentions Loving "the Devil" and Hitler and Trump, but that is what Self is, sometimes, We Are the Devil!
We are Omni- One!
Being Omni- One means ALL inclusive!
Yes, God is also all cretin, all murderer, all pervert, all pederast, all Republican... along with being 'All Good' (tm).
We are ALL everything!
We are One, Universal.
These are just very practical questions. My inquiry goes directly to the life of the enlightened. Thanks for the reply!
You're welcome! *__-

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 10th, 2018, 3:48 am

Atla wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 1:25 am
However, unlike the thousands of made up delusional belief systems, this is the one thing that's actually real.
You know, it's with assertions such as that in which all credibility is lost.

Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla » May 10th, 2018, 3:59 am

Namelesss wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 3:48 am
Atla wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 1:25 am
However, unlike the thousands of made up delusional belief systems, this is the one thing that's actually real.
You know, it's with assertions such as that in which all credibility is lost.
Well I prefaced my comments with "if you ask me" and "imo", of course if I'm shown wrong about something, I'll change my views. Haven't seen that in your comment, even though it's full of made up stuff like a literal universal Self entity, universal love, leveling things, things being halfway between perspectives, time travel :), remote viewing etc.

What you seem to have going on there is a monistic understanding of nondualism, which is close but in the end just another belief system. Maybe the last stepping stone before the nonmonistic understanding of nondualism.

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 11th, 2018, 4:40 am

Atla wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 3:59 am
Namelesss wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 3:48 am

You know, it's with assertions such as that in which all credibility is lost.
Well I prefaced my comments with "if you ask me" and "imo", of course if I'm shown wrong about something, I'll change my views. Haven't seen that in your comment, even though it's full of made up stuff like a literal universal Self entity, universal love, leveling things, things being halfway between perspectives, time travel, remote viewing etc.
I think that you're just upset that I called you on your absurd assertion!
[ad hominems removed]
What you seem to have going on there is a monistic understanding of nondualism,

Another absurd assertion.
If you'd like to learn why it is absurd, just ask (but don't get all upset, again). *__-
which is close but in the end just another belief system.

I do not need to 'believe' in 'France', I have experienced it for myself, si I Know, as have so many others.
Your lack of experience [ad hominem removed] is your own limitation, not that of France!
Maybe the last stepping stone before the nonmonistic understanding of nondualism.
[ad hominem removed]
All 'understanding' is duality.
Non-duality cannot be 'understood'.

And, even after all this 'deflection', I stand by my original comment.

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by chewybrian » May 11th, 2018, 7:02 am

Namelesss wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 3:46 am
Interestingly, in a couple hundred years, "there will be no more religion!
We will all be mystics, or we will not be!"
To my unenlightened faculty of choice, religion and mysticism might both seem dangerous. Can someone de-mystify the subject at hand with a simple definition?

I'll stab at it, and maybe you can tell me how I am mucking it up. We (our minds as well as our bodies) are matter, and the mind as separate from matter is merely an illusion we create. Is that it? If so, why bother creating the illusion? (I know why "I" the self would want the illusion, but I mean why would lower case "i", the piece of clay, bother?)

Would the opposing view be well expressed by Descartes? The only thing of which I can be sure is that I am thinking. Any part of my perception of reality is subject to proof or dis-proof, or to a new or different way of being understood (by me). Maybe I am mucking this one up as well(?), but I like it much better as a starting point, at least.

Would a rock deceive itself into thinking it has a free will? Doesn't the mere existence of the deception hint that I might be on to something (in thinking I have a free will)? If I choose to live the deception, doesn't that choice mean I might be correct, that it might not be deception after all? Let's assume the mystic has it right, yet I egotistically persist in believing "I" exist. Then, the universe has controlled me into thinking it is not controlling me?

I apologize in advanced to the enlightened or the well-informed for my simpleton questions. But, they are honest, so you can turn off the sarcasm detectors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My9I8q-iJCI

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 11th, 2018, 7:21 pm

chewybrian wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 7:02 am
Namelesss wrote:
May 10th, 2018, 3:46 am
Interestingly, in a couple hundred years, "there will be no more religion!
We will all be mystics, or we will not be!"
To my unenlightened faculty of choice, religion and mysticism might both seem dangerous. Can someone de-mystify the subject at hand with a simple definition?
(First, that was a 'quote' from OSHO about religion and mysticism.)
Simple definitions?
Sure;
'Religion' is the congregation of those infected with the same (or similar) 'beliefs'.
'Mysticism' is the transcending of the 'conditional' (dualist) to the 'unconditional' (transcendental), the Universal experience of the unchanging, ALL inclusive, Omni- One Universal Self!
I'll stab at it, and maybe you can tell me how I am mucking it up.

Oops, I thought that you were asking me.
We (our minds as well as our bodies) are matter, and the mind as separate from matter is merely an illusion we create.
Not 'create' (not anything can be 'created/caused') but accepted, or believed.
Actually, all that is perceived as 'matter', IS Mindstuff/thought!
Ultimately, there is no difference between the basic stuff of the sun, or a rock, or deep 'space', or a daydream of a flying unicorn!
All exist, all are Mind.
why bother creating the illusion?
We don't.
We don't 'create' the mirage of water in the desert, we perceive it, and head in that direction, as if...
We are all (predominately) "heading in that direction, as if..."!
Some are lucid in this dream, and can recognize the mirage as such. *__-
The only thing of which I can be sure is that I am thinking.

Experience = Knowledge!
If you are experiencing 'thought/ego', then that is, at the moment of experience, Knowledge.
You can be 'sure' that 'thought/ego' is being perceived.
Any part of my perception of reality is subject to proof or dis-proof,

We have no need to 'prove' Knowledge, we Know!
(There is not anything to perceive, ever, that is not a feature of Truth/Reality!)
Knowledge is like an itch; you mention that you have an itch and some wag comes along and asks/demands that you 'prove it'! Usually, one just smiles at the fool and moves along. No need to explain/rationalize/justify... your experience/Knowledge!
On the other hand, a 'belief' constantly requires 'defense' and 'justification/feeding' and 'propagation/spreading'!
or to a new or different way of being understood (by me).

Every moment is a unique Perspective of the One Reality!
One can never step into the same river twice!
'Understanding' is just another thought/feeling (feelings are thoughts) passing by, be Mindful of it, watch it come and go, like all thoughts/feelings and never, NEVER 'believe' what you think/feel! *__-
Would a rock deceive itself into thinking it has a free will? Doesn't the mere existence of the deception hint that I might be on to something (in thinking I have a free will)?

I don't know if you are a member of a religion, but from a religious Perspective (Xtian, especially) the 'belief' in 'free-will/choice' is the essence of the one and only 'sin', Pride!
The ego Loves to take credit for that which it is not responsible!
Basically, belief in 'free-will/choice' (not possible unless 'thought/ego' is perceived) make oneself into a (self delusional) 'Creator Godling'.
It is 'thought/ego' wearing the red spandex and sitting on our shoulders whispering sweet, sweet nothings into our readily straining ear!
We WANT to believe those warm, fuzzy, insane whispers!
Even the bible gets that one right when it warns against believing anything that you think/feel!
A rock might well so deceive itself if thought/ego were perceived from the rock's Perspective.
Every point in the Universe is A) Conscious, and B) unique Perspective!
ALL is Known!

If I choose to live the deception, doesn't that choice mean I might be correct, that it might not be deception after all?

Many live the 'mirage' as if solid Truth. It's a pragmatic thing. Reality 'changes' as 'science' grows the eyes to see it better and report back! In a couple generations, the findings of science will hit the streets.
Living a 'deception', believing it not to be a deception, makes it insanity, it doesn't make the mirage into anything more than a 'dream'!
It is ALL, the entirety of the Universe, ever, a 'dream', Mindstuff; to 'believe' is insanity!
Let's assume the mystic has it right, yet I egotistically persist in believing "I" exist. Then, the universe has controlled me into thinking it is not controlling me?
There is no 'control'! That is just another vanity of the ego!
When it is said that God is ALL inclusive, that makes God ALL ego/thought, also, and ALL insanity!!
Everything exists!
As far as the 'Cogito' goes;

"Cogito Ergo Sum!"
"I think, therefore I am!" - Descartes

This saying is exactly true, as it refers to the egoic construct of autonomous existence of a 'self', an 'I', as opposed to a 'you'/'other'.
'Ego' is the same, one and the same, as 'thought'!
Hence 'thought' being where this (egoic) 'self' exists. That is the 'I' to which the quote refers!
No 'thought/ego' = no egoic 'I'!
There can be no 'I' without 'thought'.
Thought, though, does not 'create' the egoic "I", they are one and the same, as perceived!
We don't 'think outside the box', 'thought' IS the box!

The above referenced 'I', or small 's' 'self' cannot exist in a thoughtless state, such as a Zen state where no such distinctions can be perceived.
There only exists 'one', (capital 'S') 'Self!', which is 'Universally all inclusive'. Which does not disappear when 'thought' is no longer perceived!
Ask any successful meditator, or check it out yourself.
Capisce'?

It is 'thought' that says, "I am not that!"

"Thou Art That!"

tat tvam asi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Tvam_Asi)

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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by chondriac » May 11th, 2018, 9:43 pm

Here's some more thoughts--what if time, dimensionality, and being are only faculties existing in the mind? We can measure things in the world, but if the methodology exists of the same principles it gets us no further. What if God is evil, and entry to heaven consists of the courage to "get out" of the obligations and morals society has locked you in? What if capital has run away or escaped from the control of human beings, and the inevitable fate is a technological utopia where human beings are mechanical accessories of an automated system--albeit they may have executive positions.

These are all really **** realities and there's plenty more one can conjure up but the good news is that you should not hold, at least in the beginning, onto any analysis you may have about reality or the self, purpose or meaning. if they are built on a faulty foundation it is not good for anything. Observing what you do, self-study, as segmented into differing parts (emotional intellectual physical) is a good start, but you don't need to worry about what it all means for a while, at least until you read and experience more "stuff". After reading something world-shifting I'll often write down a bunch of jumbled words which may not have much value but it's a good exercise. Whatever you remember you'll add onto whatever's next to read or do, and this will become a bigger conceptual base of which you can start to make well-informed statements.

Another thing interesting about the falsity of things is what value falsity has. Nietzsche says it better than I could:

4. The falseness of an opinion is not for us any objection to it: it is here, perhaps, that our new language sounds most strangely. The question is, how far an opinion is life-furthering, life-preserving, species-preserving, perhaps species-rearing, and we are fundamentally inclined to maintain that the falsest opinions (to which the synthetic judgments a priori belong), are the most indispensable to us, that without a recognition of logical fictions, without a comparison of reality with the purely IMAGINED world of the absolute and immutable, without a constant counterfeiting of the world by means of numbers, man could not live—that the renunciation of false opinions would be a renunciation of life, a negation of life. TO RECOGNISE UNTRUTH AS A CONDITION OF LIFE; that is certainly to impugn the traditional ideas of value in a dangerous manner, and a philosophy which ventures to do so, has thereby alone placed itself beyond good and evil.

Namelesss
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Namelesss » May 12th, 2018, 2:12 am

chewybrian wrote:
May 11th, 2018, 7:02 am
... religion and mysticism might both seem dangerous. Can someone de-mystify the subject at hand with a simple definition?
Re; 'dangerous';
No one ever deliberately harms another unless he is host to some strain of 'belief' or other!

Mystics are Blessedly 'belief free'. *__-

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