Non-Duality is terrifying

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:21 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am
Belindi wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 6:53 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 1st, 2022, 5:41 am

Dougal is "absolutely" stupid. There is no absolute. It is just a adjectival and relational operator. Its not a think in itself.
Neither the cows in the field, nor the toy cows on the table contribute to the absolute.
Maybe there is no Absolute but there are perspectives which vary according to whose perspective it is. You are not as stupid as Father Dougal but your senses can mislead you . Your senses lack the scenting of a dog, or the eyesight of an eagle. Your brain is led by what you sense and your brain has preconceptions that affect what you perceive.
Well obviously. Nor the sight of an eagle or the sonar of a bat or dolphin.
I'm puzzling to grasp why this relates to the absolute?
Perspectives vary according to biological species so the dog's or the bat's perspective on the world is different from the human perspective. In addition to biological perspectives individuals within species learn different perspectives. For instance there was a period in your life and mine when we had not learned spatial or aerial perspectives. Each individual has a different world view, therefore what a sane man with good visual acuity sees is not what another sane man with good visual acuity sees therefore appearances are deceptive.

So the question about the Absolute is whether or not all subjective experiences of men or beasts, totally, add up to something more than the total and in fact constitute a Gestalt state of absolute reality .

If there be a Gestalt state of absolute reality then non-duality is not terrifying.
No, all these differences ad up to the certain fact that absolute reality is a fake topic meaningless, for if you could somehow collect all the aspects of perception of all the known creatures ever evolved on planet earth you would still have several problems. The first is that you would have to make choices between competing conceptualisations which were not directly compatible. For example you would have to chose whether or not the world is fundamentally a world of feel, sound or sight, of colour or monochrome. You would have to chose between competing values; 20degree centigrade, is that hot or cold. If you think it is just right then ask a penguin, or a jerboa.
Also, you would still end up with a Geocentric perception. Maybe the GasWhales on Jupiter would be able to perceive things beyond your imagining? What does the look seem to a tardigrade?
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Belindi »

Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:47 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:21 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am
Belindi wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 6:53 am
Maybe there is no Absolute but there are perspectives which vary according to whose perspective it is. You are not as stupid as Father Dougal but your senses can mislead you . Your senses lack the scenting of a dog, or the eyesight of an eagle. Your brain is led by what you sense and your brain has preconceptions that affect what you perceive.
Well obviously. Nor the sight of an eagle or the sonar of a bat or dolphin.
I'm puzzling to grasp why this relates to the absolute?
Perspectives vary according to biological species so the dog's or the bat's perspective on the world is different from the human perspective. In addition to biological perspectives individuals within species learn different perspectives. For instance there was a period in your life and mine when we had not learned spatial or aerial perspectives. Each individual has a different world view, therefore what a sane man with good visual acuity sees is not what another sane man with good visual acuity sees therefore appearances are deceptive.

So the question about the Absolute is whether or not all subjective experiences of men or beasts, totally, add up to something more than the total and in fact constitute a Gestalt state of absolute reality .

If there be a Gestalt state of absolute reality then non-duality is not terrifying.
No, all these differences ad up to the certain fact that absolute reality is a fake topic meaningless, for if you could somehow collect all the aspects of perception of all the known creatures ever evolved on planet earth you would still have several problems. The first is that you would have to make choices between competing conceptualisations which were not directly compatible. For example you would have to chose whether or not the world is fundamentally a world of feel, sound or sight, of colour or monochrome. You would have to chose between competing values; 20degree centigrade, is that hot or cold. If you think it is just right then ask a penguin, or a jerboa.
Also, you would still end up with a Geocentric perception. Maybe the GasWhales on Jupiter would be able to perceive things beyond your imagining? What does the look seem to a tardigrade?
there is a choice:
1. no absolute reality, only a lot of competing conceptualisations

2. absolute reality which is composed of competing conceptualisations

3. absolute reality which is such that there are no subjects that conceptualise. I.e. non-dualism. I.e. no subjects or objects.
The easiest analogy is perhaps so-called "life after death". Personality and feeling of self relate to the physical body which begins to decay as soon as it's dead. Experience happened and , unlike flesh, can't unhappen. Time is one of uncountable other experiences.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 7:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:47 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:21 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 8:47 am

Well obviously. Nor the sight of an eagle or the sonar of a bat or dolphin.
I'm puzzling to grasp why this relates to the absolute?
Perspectives vary according to biological species so the dog's or the bat's perspective on the world is different from the human perspective. In addition to biological perspectives individuals within species learn different perspectives. For instance there was a period in your life and mine when we had not learned spatial or aerial perspectives. Each individual has a different world view, therefore what a sane man with good visual acuity sees is not what another sane man with good visual acuity sees therefore appearances are deceptive.

So the question about the Absolute is whether or not all subjective experiences of men or beasts, totally, add up to something more than the total and in fact constitute a Gestalt state of absolute reality .

If there be a Gestalt state of absolute reality then non-duality is not terrifying.
No, all these differences ad up to the certain fact that absolute reality is a fake topic meaningless, for if you could somehow collect all the aspects of perception of all the known creatures ever evolved on planet earth you would still have several problems. The first is that you would have to make choices between competing conceptualisations which were not directly compatible. For example you would have to chose whether or not the world is fundamentally a world of feel, sound or sight, of colour or monochrome. You would have to chose between competing values; 20degree centigrade, is that hot or cold. If you think it is just right then ask a penguin, or a jerboa.
Also, you would still end up with a Geocentric perception. Maybe the GasWhales on Jupiter would be able to perceive things beyond your imagining? What does the look seem to a tardigrade?
there is a choice:
1. no absolute reality, only a lot of competing conceptualisations

2. absolute reality which is composed of competing conceptualisations

3. absolute reality which is such that there are no subjects that conceptualise. I.e. non-dualism. I.e. no subjects or objects.
The easiest analogy is perhaps so-called "life after death". Personality and feeling of self relate to the physical body which begins to decay as soon as it's dead. Experience happened and , unlike flesh, can't unhappen. Time is one of uncountable other experiences.
No there is also an option in which "the absolute" is just a fantasy of mild interest but no real importance; a parlour game
Atla
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Sy Borg wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 8:29 pm I also disliked Descartes' role in objectifying other life forms, which resulted in countless gross atrocities that are being perpetrated to this day.
Looks like it was common sense 100-150 years ago that animals lack consciousness, lack inner experiences. So you can mistreat them without feeling particularly bad about it. It was "obvious".

And in science it was "obvious" that the inner mental life of the scientist doesn't disturb the physical world the scientists is investigating. Because the mental and the material never touch. Maybe it's better to just discard the mental alltogether.

Much has changed since then, but these learned patterns of split thinking don't disappear so easily. On the surface we see the split is probably wrong, but deep down we continue to use it.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Atla wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 12:17 pm Most or all of [materialist philosophers] [think consciousness is nothing], and you won't get any citation because they don't know it. They all have the cognitive split. Idealists too. All Westerners have the split, even if they don't subscribe to materialism or idealism.
That's not how philosophy works. In order to state something you need to quote. Broad statements like those are not productive in academic or study settings. Can you imagine a philosophy paper claiming "they all think X but I can't quote it because they don't know they think it"? Philosophy is a very precise activity, not a collection of ideas and interpretations.

For example, Marx (probably the most "materialist" philosopher) never claimed "consciousness is nothing". In fact, Marx -just like in Feuerbach, following Schelling- claimed that consciousness is a transpersonal activity. That was the default position of German romanticism: the community is previously and logically prior to the individual. Therefore, consciousness cannot emerge form the individual subject, but from a transpersonal becoming, etc.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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usevalue wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 2:37 pmFor example, Marx (probably the most "materialist" philosopher) never claimed "consciousness is nothing". In fact, Marx -just like in Feuerbach, following Schelling- claimed that consciousness is a transpersonal activity. That was the default position of German romanticism: the community is previously and logically prior to the individual. Therefore, consciousness cannot emerge form the individual subject, but from a transpersonal becoming, etc.
To be fair, the idea that consciousness cannot emerge from the individual is contestable, and not just because it is anthropocentric. When animals that live alone, eg. orangutans, tigers are considered, the problem with the German romantic view becomes clear. Does a single mother and child in the woods count as "community"? Whatever, they would be unmistakeably conscious.

Consciousness emerges from genetics, rather than the communities. Genetics are basically just stored information from the environments of ancestors (which is why Earth scientists are using ancient DNA to understand the environments of those time periods). Since communities are part of an individual's environment, it could at least be said that past communities have played a key role in shaping the consciousness of new human individuals.

There is enough genetic heritage - millions of years of it - to confer consciousness without community. Community interactions shape and refine that raw human consciousness, as they do the consciousness of other social species.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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usevalue wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 2:37 pm
Atla wrote: May 2nd, 2022, 12:17 pm Most or all of [materialist philosophers] [think consciousness is nothing], and you won't get any citation because they don't know it. They all have the cognitive split. Idealists too. All Westerners have the split, even if they don't subscribe to materialism or idealism.
That's not how philosophy works. In order to state something you need to quote. Broad statements like those are not productive in academic or study settings. Can you imagine a philosophy paper claiming "they all think X but I can't quote it because they don't know they think it"? Philosophy is a very precise activity, not a collection of ideas and interpretations.

For example, Marx (probably the most "materialist" philosopher) never claimed "consciousness is nothing". In fact, Marx -just like in Feuerbach, following Schelling- claimed that consciousness is a transpersonal activity. That was the default position of German romanticism: the community is previously and logically prior to the individual. Therefore, consciousness cannot emerge form the individual subject, but from a transpersonal becoming, etc.
This says Marx was no philosophical materialist, he was critical of both philosophical materialism and idealism and integrated them into one thing.
MARX ON CONSCIOUSNESS
Marx’s enormous intellectual project and political activism were driven and sustained by a motivation far more profound than scholarly curiosity. He had an abiding belief in the possibility of human beings and also humanity becoming more than they were at any one point in history. For Marx, to be fully human, human beings, meant that people would be continuously engaged in a process of becoming, a process of developing all of their potentials (Marx, 1844a:1972; 1858: 1973). Of course, Marx understood that the realisation of this latent potentiality depended upon human beings’ collective engagement in self and social transformation. His critical utopian vision together with his understanding of the prerequisites for achieving it were almost certainly the main factors that motivated him to discover the laws of capitalism—thus producing for humanity at least the intellectual weapons that would be needed for a transformational struggle against capital. Marx began his economic studies in the early 1840’s, but it was not until the late 1850’s that he was in a position that would allow him to devote his full intellectual energies to discovering and then communicating the laws of capitalism. However, ten years before he undertook this endeavour, he produced a unique and equally important theory of consciousness. In 1846, Marx, in collaboration with Engels, completed The German Ideology, the text in which this theory of consciousness was first expressed. Unfortunately, this important work was not published until 1932, despite the best efforts of the authors. Nevertheless, the basic tenets of the theory together with its further elaboration are integral to Marx’s economic writings. In fact, Marx’s theory of consciousness explains why the laws of capital can only be discovered by means of a critical scientific analysis. It is also a theory with enormous implications for education, implications that are considered in the next chapter. First, however, it is important to explain the theory and to discuss the general implications and logical extensions pertaining to it.

THE THEORY, ITS LOGICAL EXTENSIONS & IMPLICATIONS

Quite often, Marx presents his ideas in the form of a critique, and his original presentation of his theory of consciousness was no exception. In other words, he presents his theory through a critique of other people’s thinking, i.e., the general form of their thinking as well as, in this case, their understanding of consciousness, especially the origin of consciousness. When Marx and Engels wrote The German Ideology, there were two predominant theories of the origin of consciousness. Idealism, one of these theories, and the one with the longest historical legacy, holds that ideas, or consciousness, are antecedent to the material (real) world. In other words, the real world is the result of consciousness. The other theory, which is a form of materialism, a mechanical and unhistorical form, proposes the exact opposite; ideas and consciousness are the result of sensory projections of material phenomena. Marx was critical of the dichotomised type of thinking that underpinned both of these theories. In each case the real world (material world) and consciousness are conceptualised as separate and distinct entities/phenomena. There also is no reciprocity between material reality and consciousness; all movement between the two takes place in only one direction. These two theories differ only in so far as the entity to which causal significance, and thus movement, is attributed. Marx was critical not just of how dichotomised thinking produced these theories but also of how the dichotomising of reality and consciousness encouraged reified, and in its worse form fetishised, thought (both of which are discussed later in this chapter). In contrast and critical opposition to these theories, Marx formulated an inimitable and revolutionary theory of consciousness that permitted no dichotomy, or binary separation, between consciousness and reality. As readers may already have anticipated, Marx conceptualises consciousness and reality as an internally related unity of opposites. Additionally, reality is conceptualised dynamically, as the sensuous, active experience of human beings in the material world. Therefore, at any one moment in time, consciousness is comprised of thoughts that arise from each human being’s sensuous activity. Moreover, the consciousness of any human being will also include thoughts that have arisen external to the individual’s own sensuous activity, i.e., from other people’s sensuous activity both historically and contemporaneously. However, individuals’ only integrate these external sources of consciousness through actively engaging with them. Since Marx’s theory of consciousness posits the dialectical unity of human thought and practice, it is actually a theory of praxis but more, much more, on this later. To reiterate, according to Marx, thinking and action, consciousness and sensuous human experience, are inseparable. Marx’s theory also proposes that the sensuous activity that has the greatest impact on consciousness is people’s experience within the social relations in which they engage in order to produce their material world, i.e., their experience within historically specific social relations of production—relations that determine both how they produce and what they produce (1846:1976,
p. 37).

When taken together with his critical analysis of capitalism, Marx’s theory of consciousness leads to several other significant insights. To begin with, because human beings’ sensuous activity takes place within historically specific social relations, e.g., capitalist social relations of production, the general characteristics of consciousness are also historically specific. In other words, the consciousness of people living within capitalist social relations will have general characteristics that are different from the characteristics of consciousness that prevailed, for example, in feudal societies and thus feudal social relations.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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In contrast and critical opposition to these theories, Marx formulated an inimitable and revolutionary theory of consciousness that permitted no dichotomy, or binary separation, between consciousness and reality. As readers may already have anticipated, Marx conceptualises consciousness and reality as an internally related unity of opposites. Additionally, reality is conceptualised dynamically, as the sensuous, active experience of human beings in the material world.
You know how it is in Western philosophy, people think they've conquered the inherent double vision (dichotomy) with a revolutionary new idea, but in truth they only came up with a new iteration of the dichotomy, which is simply harder to detect.

Now we have an internally related unity of opposites, which are however still two different things. There's consciousness and there's reality, there is an interplay between them.

In nondualism however, consciousness and reality are one and the same thing, that's what it means to truly integrate them. In nondualism we don't have this flip-flopping between the first-person-view of consciousness and the third-person-view of reality, because there's only the eternal first person view. The third-person-view is a conceptualization, not an actual point of view.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Having read Marx directly, I can only say that what we now understand as "materialism" in philosophy stems from Marx's philosophical stance on dialectical materialism (or "new materialism"), which is where Deleuze's philosophy begins. Arguing using old and long unused notions of "materialism" and "idealism" is not very productive, because we have had centuries of development in the field.

In contemporary continental philosophy we don't have "consciousness" and "reality". The subject-object separation was collapsed in Hegel, and the current state of Idealism as a philosophy of consciousness, starts from there. A great example is Sebastian Rödl's work "Selfconsciousness", which begins with this collapse, and expands from there, in order to make a contemporary argument for Absolute Idealism, which is nonduality.

It's a bit too egotistical to think nobody else has reached these conclusions and all philosophers are wrong. There's people who dedicate their lives to these topics, and reach these conclusions on their own. It's not obscure science. It's a fairly commonplace in Absolute Idealist philosophy.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:54 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 7:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:47 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:21 am

Perspectives vary according to biological species so the dog's or the bat's perspective on the world is different from the human perspective. In addition to biological perspectives individuals within species learn different perspectives. For instance there was a period in your life and mine when we had not learned spatial or aerial perspectives. Each individual has a different world view, therefore what a sane man with good visual acuity sees is not what another sane man with good visual acuity sees therefore appearances are deceptive.

So the question about the Absolute is whether or not all subjective experiences of men or beasts, totally, add up to something more than the total and in fact constitute a Gestalt state of absolute reality .

If there be a Gestalt state of absolute reality then non-duality is not terrifying.
No, all these differences ad up to the certain fact that absolute reality is a fake topic meaningless, for if you could somehow collect all the aspects of perception of all the known creatures ever evolved on planet earth you would still have several problems. The first is that you would have to make choices between competing conceptualisations which were not directly compatible. For example you would have to chose whether or not the world is fundamentally a world of feel, sound or sight, of colour or monochrome. You would have to chose between competing values; 20degree centigrade, is that hot or cold. If you think it is just right then ask a penguin, or a jerboa.
Also, you would still end up with a Geocentric perception. Maybe the GasWhales on Jupiter would be able to perceive things beyond your imagining? What does the look seem to a tardigrade?
there is a choice:
1. no absolute reality, only a lot of competing conceptualisations

2. absolute reality which is composed of competing conceptualisations

3. absolute reality which is such that there are no subjects that conceptualise. I.e. non-dualism. I.e. no subjects or objects.
The easiest analogy is perhaps so-called "life after death". Personality and feeling of self relate to the physical body which begins to decay as soon as it's dead. Experience happened and , unlike flesh, can't unhappen. Time is one of uncountable other experiences.
No there is also an option in which "the absolute" is just a fantasy of mild interest but no real importance; a parlour game
The absolute is no parlour game for me and millions of others! Belief in the Absolute solves the problem of ' Is your bedroom still there when you leave it and close the door?'.

A pragmatic approach to belief in the Absolute gives us hope that reality is more than perspectives ticking away until the brain and body proper decay.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

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Belindi wrote: May 4th, 2022, 5:19 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 10:54 am
Belindi wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 7:11 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 4:47 am

No, all these differences ad up to the certain fact that absolute reality is a fake topic meaningless, for if you could somehow collect all the aspects of perception of all the known creatures ever evolved on planet earth you would still have several problems. The first is that you would have to make choices between competing conceptualisations which were not directly compatible. For example you would have to chose whether or not the world is fundamentally a world of feel, sound or sight, of colour or monochrome. You would have to chose between competing values; 20degree centigrade, is that hot or cold. If you think it is just right then ask a penguin, or a jerboa.
Also, you would still end up with a Geocentric perception. Maybe the GasWhales on Jupiter would be able to perceive things beyond your imagining? What does the look seem to a tardigrade?
there is a choice:
1. no absolute reality, only a lot of competing conceptualisations

2. absolute reality which is composed of competing conceptualisations

3. absolute reality which is such that there are no subjects that conceptualise. I.e. non-dualism. I.e. no subjects or objects.
The easiest analogy is perhaps so-called "life after death". Personality and feeling of self relate to the physical body which begins to decay as soon as it's dead. Experience happened and , unlike flesh, can't unhappen. Time is one of uncountable other experiences.
No there is also an option in which "the absolute" is just a fantasy of mild interest but no real importance; a parlour game
The absolute is no parlour game for me and millions of others!
That is palpably false - you may not speak for millions of others.
Belief in the Absolute solves the problem of ' Is your bedroom still there when you leave it and close the door?'.
No it does not. This is nothing more than the idea of persistence of vision.

A pragmatic approach to belief in the Absolute gives us hope that reality is more than perspectives ticking away until the brain and body proper decay.
Few ever use that as a concept. And so you and your imaginary millions have much work to do.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

usevalue wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 5:36 pm Having read Marx directly, I can only say that what we now understand as "materialism" in philosophy stems from Marx's philosophical stance on dialectical materialism (or "new materialism"), which is where Deleuze's philosophy begins. Arguing using old and long unused notions of "materialism" and "idealism" is not very productive, because we have had centuries of development in the field.

In contemporary continental philosophy we don't have "consciousness" and "reality". The subject-object separation was collapsed in Hegel, and the current state of Idealism as a philosophy of consciousness, starts from there. A great example is Sebastian Rödl's work "Selfconsciousness", which begins with this collapse, and expands from there, in order to make a contemporary argument for Absolute Idealism, which is nonduality.

It's a bit too egotistical to think nobody else has reached these conclusions and all philosophers are wrong. There's people who dedicate their lives to these topics, and reach these conclusions on their own. It's not obscure science. It's a fairly commonplace in Absolute Idealist philosophy.
I don't see how nondualism is absolute idealism or any idealism. A few Western philsophers may have figured out nondualism on their own, but by and large I haven't encountered this characteristic nondual talk in Western philosophy, that's so familiar from Eastern philosophy.

For example it says "Idealism for Hegel meant that the finite world is a reflection of mind, which alone is truly real."

What does that mean? The external "material" world is just as real as the contents of the human mind. It's just that we can never know what the external world is like. The "reflections of mind" are also "made of matter" etc.
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