Rather ironic seeing how you're the one who managed to take one thing and turn it into three different things (conscious, intermind, physical) using semantics and definitions.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 8th, 2022, 11:06 amI think your distinctions make no difference.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2022, 10:37 amOur philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.
I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.
Impasse!!!!
materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental
But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material
"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
Non-Duality is terrifying
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
I used a Logical and Sensible chain of Reasoning.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2022, 11:36 amRather ironic seeing how you're the one who managed to take one thing and turn it into three different things (conscious, intermind, physical) using semantics and definitions.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 8th, 2022, 11:06 amI think your distinctions make no difference.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2022, 10:37 amOur philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.
I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.
Impasse!!!!
materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental
But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material
"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.
Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being(absolute experience). Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute (absolute experience) is the ground of finite being(finite experiences). The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person. However it's a short step to add morality as experiential and not just a code of rules.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
I think your definition (which is probably the standard definition) of Non Duality shows me that the term Non Duality is not the correct name for such a thing as you describe. What you describe should more properly be called Non Multiplicity. When you say Non Duality it immediately makes you think that your View is only about consolidation of two different things. It would make anyone that had studied Consciousness to think you are talking about Body (Brain) and Mind.Belindi wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 9:59 am Non-duality is the felt understanding that all are not parts of a whole but are the whole. The felt understanding of non-duality arrives as a psychological break- through occasioned sometimes spontaneously and sometimes through meditation or drugs.
Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.
Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being. Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute is the ground of finite being. The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
I agree 'non-multiplicity' is better, and not only for the reason you give. I'm sure I've read somewhere either 'non multiplicity' or its synonym. Possibly Leibnitz.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 10:17 amI think your definition (which is probably the standard definition) of Non Duality shows me that the term Non Duality is not the correct name for such a thing as you describe. What you describe should more properly be called Non Multiplicity. When you say Non Duality it immediately makes you think that your View is only about consolidation of two different things. It would make anyone that had studied Consciousness to think you are talking about Body (Brain) and Mind.Belindi wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 9:59 am Non-duality is the felt understanding that all are not parts of a whole but are the whole. The felt understanding of non-duality arrives as a psychological break- through occasioned sometimes spontaneously and sometimes through meditation or drugs.
Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.
Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being. Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute is the ground of finite being. The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person.
(edited) I found this:
www.faculty.umb.eduThe problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things in the universe is called the problem of the one and the many. Basically stated, the problem of the one and the many begins from the assumption that the universe is one thing. Because it is one thing, there must be one, unifying aspect behind everything.
The One and the Many
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Soo for example, pretty much everything I write on philosophy forums is in metaphor. I'm writing in metaphor right now.
What is "dualistic thinking"?
We think and communicate using thoughts, concepts, and these naturally (?) come in "units" of thought. A thing is a think, a thought, one unit of thought.
We build our entire thinking on such units. Units of thoughts have outlines, here the thought starts and there it ends. This is the thought and this isn't the thought.
This is "dualistic" thinking, thinking using these units. Our thoughts have outlines. The outlines of our thoughts automatically divide the mental landscape into two. There is a border.
"Nondual" thinking is the realization that these units/outlines/borders are mental illusions, because everything is continuous. So we get rid of them, learn to think without them.
"Nondualism" is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero. But especially not-two.
It's the multiplicity of all things seens as being all one, yet it's not one with a border.
Which brings up one of the most important subtleties: EVEN a pure "Western" neutral monism is NOT "Eastern" nondualism.
Because somewhere deep within our thinkin, the Western monism still divides into two using the units/outlines/borders of dualistic thinking. In "Eastern" nondualism there is no subtle cognitive division.
This is a small, hidden technicality that leads to a completely different school of thought. It's a little known fact that there are two fundamentally different schools of thought on this planet, not one.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
This applies in addition to what I wrote above: the two main Western philosophies materialism and idealism, are typically actually exclusory dualisms, not even pure "bordered" monisms.
And these things apply in addition to Western philosophy's obsession of chasing the essences of things, even though there are no things with their inherent essences.
At least three ways to go wrong, one would be enough. So no wonder Western philosophy of mind is at a dead end since like 400 years.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.Atla wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 10:45 am The main problem with defining "Eastern" nondualism, and speaking about it at all, is that all language is inherently dualistic. And "dualistic" here also means something for which there is no English word, I'll try to explain below. One has to try to convey the nondual message in dualistic language, or remain silent.
Soo for example, pretty much everything I write on philosophy forums is in metaphor. I'm writing in metaphor right now.
What is "dualistic thinking"?
We think and communicate using thoughts, concepts, and these naturally (?) come in "units" of thought. A thing is a think, a thought, one unit of thought.
We build our entire thinking on such units. Units of thoughts have outlines, here the thought starts and there it ends. This is the thought and this isn't the thought.
This is "dualistic" thinking, thinking using these units. Our thoughts have outlines. The outlines of our thoughts automatically divide the mental landscape into two. There is a border.
"Nondual" thinking is the realization that these units/outlines/borders are mental illusions, because everything is continuous. So we get rid of them, learn to think without them.
"Nondualism" is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero. But especially not-two.
It's the multiplicity of all things seens as being all one, yet it's not one with a border.
Which brings up one of the most important subtleties: EVEN a pure "Western" neutral monism is NOT "Eastern" nondualism.
Because somewhere deep within our thinkin, the Western monism still divides into two using the units/outlines/borders of dualistic thinking. In "Eastern" nondualism there is no subtle cognitive division.
This is a small, hidden technicality that leads to a completely different school of thought. It's a little known fact that there are two fundamentally different schools of thought on this planet, not one.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
That wasn't my pointSteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 11:15 am I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
I suppose I didn't get your point if it was something other than what I took to be your definition of Non Dualism. Did I portray your definition of Non Dualism correctly, even if I did not get your implied point?Atla wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 12:59 pmThat wasn't my pointSteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 11:15 am I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Where did you portray my definition of nondualism?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑April 9th, 2022, 2:44 pm I suppose I didn't get your point if it was something other than what I took to be your definition of Non Dualism. Did I portray your definition of Non Dualism correctly, even if I did not get your implied point?
When it comes to typical materialism and idealism though, one of the categories is the empty set. Which is the error our philosophers don't realize.Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Hey! I joined this forum after reading your posts. I found myself nodding and agreeing with your posts all the time. I came to non-duality from a transcendental experience with psychedelics (I later on realized this is fairly common), and through philosophy. I also experienced "the truth" and then the inevitable "going back" to reality, realizing the truth is just a technical explanation, and our real material conditions remain unchanged. We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos. I didn't experience love or compassion or infinite bliss or anything like that. It was more like staring at the face of the mechanical and immanent movements of "nature". It was deeply shocking and terrifying, but also deeply familiar.
Anyway, I joined to say that if you can endure the dry language and the slow process of unveiling a very dense text, I would highly suggest you reading Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. It's basically a philosophical exposition of the experience of consciousness, reaching non-duality. It's so marvelously explained I just had to join this forum to post this.
I just wanted to say this because unlike Kant (who is still into a modernist and enlighten perspective), Hegel actually tackles these issues head on. The main difference is that, for Hegel, is not that "Being" is all there is: being and nothingness are just empty categories that are logically previous to our existence. "Becoming" is all there is. This is stated even in the famous first pages of the Science of Logic.
Hope this is useful!
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Elements, as in differentiated experiences, are differentiated by usage ; human usage. Usage is oriented towards the future as all centres of finite experience must be. Mathematics itself is an 'element' and like a species or a chess move is arbitrated by its use.
The Absolute , far from being terrifying, is experience without sequestered elements , The Absolute is without sequestration by times, spaces, and elemental forces. It's true that "We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos." But absolute experience includes all experiences of finality and transience.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Like so many other things the absolute is just another crazy human conceit with no basis in reality.Belindi wrote: ↑April 30th, 2022, 4:50 am The Absolute is unlike an empty set because the Absolute is neither composed of 'elements' nor not-composed of 'elements'.
Elements, as in differentiated experiences, are differentiated by usage ; human usage. Usage is oriented towards the future as all centres of finite experience must be. Mathematics itself is an 'element' and like a species or a chess move is arbitrated by its use.
The Absolute , far from being terrifying, is experience without sequestered elements , The Absolute is without sequestration by times, spaces, and elemental forces. It's true that "We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos." But absolute experience includes all experiences of finality and transience.
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying
Thanks I'll look into it! I'm not good at reading philosophy, I realized nondualism mainly through science and psychology, but they say Hegel is pretty straight to the point, that works for me I think.usevalue wrote: ↑April 29th, 2022, 4:22 pmHey! I joined this forum after reading your posts. I found myself nodding and agreeing with your posts all the time. I came to non-duality from a transcendental experience with psychedelics (I later on realized this is fairly common), and through philosophy. I also experienced "the truth" and then the inevitable "going back" to reality, realizing the truth is just a technical explanation, and our real material conditions remain unchanged. We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos. I didn't experience love or compassion or infinite bliss or anything like that. It was more like staring at the face of the mechanical and immanent movements of "nature". It was deeply shocking and terrifying, but also deeply familiar.
Anyway, I joined to say that if you can endure the dry language and the slow process of unveiling a very dense text, I would highly suggest you reading Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. It's basically a philosophical exposition of the experience of consciousness, reaching non-duality. It's so marvelously explained I just had to join this forum to post this.
I just wanted to say this because unlike Kant (who is still into a modernist and enlighten perspective), Hegel actually tackles these issues head on. The main difference is that, for Hegel, is not that "Being" is all there is: being and nothingness are just empty categories that are logically previous to our existence. "Becoming" is all there is. This is stated even in the famous first pages of the Science of Logic.
Hope this is useful!
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