Non-Duality is terrifying

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 8th, 2022, 11:06 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2022, 10:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Our philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:

materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental

But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material

"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
I think your distinctions make no difference.
Rather ironic seeing how you're the one who managed to take one thing and turn it into three different things (conscious, intermind, physical) using semantics and definitions.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 8th, 2022, 11:36 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 8th, 2022, 11:06 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2022, 10:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Our philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:

materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental

But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material

"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
I think your distinctions make no difference.
Rather ironic seeing how you're the one who managed to take one thing and turn it into three different things (conscious, intermind, physical) using semantics and definitions.
I used a Logical and Sensible chain of Reasoning.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Belindi »

Non-duality is the felt understanding that all are not parts of a whole but are the whole. The felt understanding of non-duality arrives as a psychological break- through occasioned sometimes spontaneously and sometimes through meditation or drugs.

Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.

Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being(absolute experience). Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute (absolute experience) is the ground of finite being(finite experiences). The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person. However it's a short step to add morality as experiential and not just a code of rules.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Belindi wrote: April 9th, 2022, 9:59 am Non-duality is the felt understanding that all are not parts of a whole but are the whole. The felt understanding of non-duality arrives as a psychological break- through occasioned sometimes spontaneously and sometimes through meditation or drugs.

Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.

Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being. Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute is the ground of finite being. The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person.
I think your definition (which is probably the standard definition) of Non Duality shows me that the term Non Duality is not the correct name for such a thing as you describe. What you describe should more properly be called Non Multiplicity. When you say Non Duality it immediately makes you think that your View is only about consolidation of two different things. It would make anyone that had studied Consciousness to think you are talking about Body (Brain) and Mind.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Belindi »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 9th, 2022, 10:17 am
Belindi wrote: April 9th, 2022, 9:59 am Non-duality is the felt understanding that all are not parts of a whole but are the whole. The felt understanding of non-duality arrives as a psychological break- through occasioned sometimes spontaneously and sometimes through meditation or drugs.

Absolute idealism is sometimes felt as above but can also be understood by deduction from the first principle that experience is all there is.

Hegel claimed there are finite beings which are possible only because there is absolute being. Bradley the British absolute idealist also claimed the Absolute is the ground of finite being. The Absolute is not identical with God because the Absolute is not a person.
I think your definition (which is probably the standard definition) of Non Duality shows me that the term Non Duality is not the correct name for such a thing as you describe. What you describe should more properly be called Non Multiplicity. When you say Non Duality it immediately makes you think that your View is only about consolidation of two different things. It would make anyone that had studied Consciousness to think you are talking about Body (Brain) and Mind.
I agree 'non-multiplicity' is better, and not only for the reason you give. I'm sure I've read somewhere either 'non multiplicity' or its synonym. Possibly Leibnitz.

(edited) I found this:
The problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things in the universe is called the problem of the one and the many. Basically stated, the problem of the one and the many begins from the assumption that the universe is one thing. Because it is one thing, there must be one, unifying aspect behind everything.

The One and the Many
www.faculty.umb.edu
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

The main problem with defining "Eastern" nondualism, and speaking about it at all, is that all language is inherently dualistic. And "dualistic" here also means something for which there is no English word, I'll try to explain below. One has to try to convey the nondual message in dualistic language, or remain silent.

Soo for example, pretty much everything I write on philosophy forums is in metaphor. I'm writing in metaphor right now.

What is "dualistic thinking"?

We think and communicate using thoughts, concepts, and these naturally (?) come in "units" of thought. A thing is a think, a thought, one unit of thought.

We build our entire thinking on such units. Units of thoughts have outlines, here the thought starts and there it ends. This is the thought and this isn't the thought.
This is "dualistic" thinking, thinking using these units. Our thoughts have outlines. The outlines of our thoughts automatically divide the mental landscape into two. There is a border.

"Nondual" thinking is the realization that these units/outlines/borders are mental illusions, because everything is continuous. So we get rid of them, learn to think without them.

"Nondualism" is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero. But especially not-two.
It's the multiplicity of all things seens as being all one, yet it's not one with a border.

Which brings up one of the most important subtleties: EVEN a pure "Western" neutral monism is NOT "Eastern" nondualism.

Because somewhere deep within our thinkin, the Western monism still divides into two using the units/outlines/borders of dualistic thinking. In "Eastern" nondualism there is no subtle cognitive division.

This is a small, hidden technicality that leads to a completely different school of thought. It's a little known fact that there are two fundamentally different schools of thought on this planet, not one.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

That's why some say that Western philosophy (even including phenomenology and Kant and all that) hasn't pierced the essence of nondualism. They went as far as they could within dualistic thinking, but ultimately dualistic philosophy is it's own downfall.

This applies in addition to what I wrote above: the two main Western philosophies materialism and idealism, are typically actually exclusory dualisms, not even pure "bordered" monisms.

And these things apply in addition to Western philosophy's obsession of chasing the essences of things, even though there are no things with their inherent essences.

At least three ways to go wrong, one would be enough. So no wonder Western philosophy of mind is at a dead end since like 400 years.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 9th, 2022, 10:45 am The main problem with defining "Eastern" nondualism, and speaking about it at all, is that all language is inherently dualistic. And "dualistic" here also means something for which there is no English word, I'll try to explain below. One has to try to convey the nondual message in dualistic language, or remain silent.

Soo for example, pretty much everything I write on philosophy forums is in metaphor. I'm writing in metaphor right now.

What is "dualistic thinking"?

We think and communicate using thoughts, concepts, and these naturally (?) come in "units" of thought. A thing is a think, a thought, one unit of thought.

We build our entire thinking on such units. Units of thoughts have outlines, here the thought starts and there it ends. This is the thought and this isn't the thought.
This is "dualistic" thinking, thinking using these units. Our thoughts have outlines. The outlines of our thoughts automatically divide the mental landscape into two. There is a border.

"Nondual" thinking is the realization that these units/outlines/borders are mental illusions, because everything is continuous. So we get rid of them, learn to think without them.

"Nondualism" is: not-many, not-two, not-one, not-zero. But especially not-two.
It's the multiplicity of all things seens as being all one, yet it's not one with a border.

Which brings up one of the most important subtleties: EVEN a pure "Western" neutral monism is NOT "Eastern" nondualism.

Because somewhere deep within our thinkin, the Western monism still divides into two using the units/outlines/borders of dualistic thinking. In "Eastern" nondualism there is no subtle cognitive division.

This is a small, hidden technicality that leads to a completely different school of thought. It's a little known fact that there are two fundamentally different schools of thought on this planet, not one.
I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 9th, 2022, 11:15 am I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
That wasn't my point
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 9th, 2022, 12:59 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 9th, 2022, 11:15 am I think you are stretching the term Dualistic beyond its breaking point. Just because Something (Thoughts or Objects) are there and then not there does not imply Dualism. Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
That wasn't my point
I suppose I didn't get your point if it was something other than what I took to be your definition of Non Dualism. Did I portray your definition of Non Dualism correctly, even if I did not get your implied point?
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 9th, 2022, 2:44 pm I suppose I didn't get your point if it was something other than what I took to be your definition of Non Dualism. Did I portray your definition of Non Dualism correctly, even if I did not get your implied point?
Where did you portray my definition of nondualism?

Dualism in my way of thinking has always meant that there must be two separate Categories of Things, Thoughts, Objects, etc. We then can talk about the relationship between the two Things. But one of the Categories of Things cannot be the Empty Set, or in other words the absence of Things, or Nothing. This is an incoherent setup of a Duality.
When it comes to typical materialism and idealism though, one of the categories is the empty set. Which is the error our philosophers don't realize.
True philosophy points to the Moon
User avatar
usevalue
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: April 29th, 2022, 4:04 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by usevalue »

Atla wrote: April 9th, 2022, 2:59 pm When it comes to typical materialism and idealism though, one of the categories is the empty set. Which is the error our philosophers don't realize.
Hey! I joined this forum after reading your posts. I found myself nodding and agreeing with your posts all the time. I came to non-duality from a transcendental experience with psychedelics (I later on realized this is fairly common), and through philosophy. I also experienced "the truth" and then the inevitable "going back" to reality, realizing the truth is just a technical explanation, and our real material conditions remain unchanged. We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos. I didn't experience love or compassion or infinite bliss or anything like that. It was more like staring at the face of the mechanical and immanent movements of "nature". It was deeply shocking and terrifying, but also deeply familiar.

Anyway, I joined to say that if you can endure the dry language and the slow process of unveiling a very dense text, I would highly suggest you reading Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. It's basically a philosophical exposition of the experience of consciousness, reaching non-duality. It's so marvelously explained I just had to join this forum to post this.

I just wanted to say this because unlike Kant (who is still into a modernist and enlighten perspective), Hegel actually tackles these issues head on. The main difference is that, for Hegel, is not that "Being" is all there is: being and nothingness are just empty categories that are logically previous to our existence. "Becoming" is all there is. This is stated even in the famous first pages of the Science of Logic.

Hope this is useful!
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Belindi »

The Absolute is unlike an empty set because the Absolute is neither composed of 'elements' nor not-composed of 'elements'.

Elements, as in differentiated experiences, are differentiated by usage ; human usage. Usage is oriented towards the future as all centres of finite experience must be. Mathematics itself is an 'element' and like a species or a chess move is arbitrated by its use.

The Absolute , far from being terrifying, is experience without sequestered elements , The Absolute is without sequestration by times, spaces, and elemental forces. It's true that "We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos." But absolute experience includes all experiences of finality and transience.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Sculptor1 »

Belindi wrote: April 30th, 2022, 4:50 am The Absolute is unlike an empty set because the Absolute is neither composed of 'elements' nor not-composed of 'elements'.

Elements, as in differentiated experiences, are differentiated by usage ; human usage. Usage is oriented towards the future as all centres of finite experience must be. Mathematics itself is an 'element' and like a species or a chess move is arbitrated by its use.

The Absolute , far from being terrifying, is experience without sequestered elements , The Absolute is without sequestration by times, spaces, and elemental forces. It's true that "We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos." But absolute experience includes all experiences of finality and transience.
Like so many other things the absolute is just another crazy human conceit with no basis in reality.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

usevalue wrote: April 29th, 2022, 4:22 pm
Atla wrote: April 9th, 2022, 2:59 pm When it comes to typical materialism and idealism though, one of the categories is the empty set. Which is the error our philosophers don't realize.
Hey! I joined this forum after reading your posts. I found myself nodding and agreeing with your posts all the time. I came to non-duality from a transcendental experience with psychedelics (I later on realized this is fairly common), and through philosophy. I also experienced "the truth" and then the inevitable "going back" to reality, realizing the truth is just a technical explanation, and our real material conditions remain unchanged. We still have a body, we still die, and there is no magical afterlife for our human egos. I didn't experience love or compassion or infinite bliss or anything like that. It was more like staring at the face of the mechanical and immanent movements of "nature". It was deeply shocking and terrifying, but also deeply familiar.

Anyway, I joined to say that if you can endure the dry language and the slow process of unveiling a very dense text, I would highly suggest you reading Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. It's basically a philosophical exposition of the experience of consciousness, reaching non-duality. It's so marvelously explained I just had to join this forum to post this.

I just wanted to say this because unlike Kant (who is still into a modernist and enlighten perspective), Hegel actually tackles these issues head on. The main difference is that, for Hegel, is not that "Being" is all there is: being and nothingness are just empty categories that are logically previous to our existence. "Becoming" is all there is. This is stated even in the famous first pages of the Science of Logic.

Hope this is useful!
Thanks I'll look into it! :) I'm not good at reading philosophy, I realized nondualism mainly through science and psychology, but they say Hegel is pretty straight to the point, that works for me I think.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021