Non-Duality is terrifying

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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anni
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Joined: March 8th, 2022, 7:04 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by anni »

"Nondualism is NOT idealism."

I know that but I am still not quite sure- where exactly are the differences?
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

anni wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:29 am "Nondualism is NOT idealism."

I know that but I am still not quite sure- where exactly are the differences?
I'd say, Descartes and others made it official that there is a mental/material split. The old mind/body problem, set into stone. So most of Western philosophy can be divided into two camps: idealists who hold that the mental is fundamental, and materialists who hold that the material is fundamental. (And there a few lesser camps who think that they are equally fundamental etc.)

So these two camps have been duking it out for centuries, trying to figure out who is right. Idealists think that existence is fundamentally mental, it's made of ideas, consciousness, experience etc. For example matter is just something that appears in consciousness. Or that the world is literally in our mind. Things like this.

Nondualism however holds that the mental/material split never existed in the first place because they are one and the same thing, so every camp above is slightly crazy.
True philosophy points to the Moon
anni
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Joined: March 8th, 2022, 7:04 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by anni »

Thanks.

I was just going to write that:


As I understood it: Idealism is the idea of the primacy of the mental over material? And non duality says that there is no difference between the mental and material - its all one? Right?
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

anni wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:44 am Thanks.

I was just going to write that:


As I understood it: Idealism is the idea of the primacy of the mental over material? And non duality says that there is no difference between the mental and material - its all one? Right?
Yeah mental and material are basically one and the same thing, just conceptualized in two different ways (conceptualized using two different parts of our minds, presumably).

All mental contect can be said to be made of matter. All material things can be said to be part of the "first-person-view consciousness".

"Matter" itself is actually just an empty idea that we use to describe the world from an third-person-view perspective. It's a description, conceptualized existence.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
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Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:24 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am Non Duality (Idealism)
Idealism is based on ideas, and/or the primacy of the mental over the material. Nondualism is NOT idealism.
Yes, but in general Non Dualism is either Physicalism or Idealism. I thought this thread headed down the Idealism path. Maybe I was wrong.
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:24 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am Non Duality (Idealism)
Idealism is based on ideas, and/or the primacy of the mental over the material. Nondualism is NOT idealism.
Yes, but in general Non Dualism is either Physicalism or Idealism. I thought this thread headed down the Idealism path. Maybe I was wrong.
Nondualism isn't physicalism or idealism.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
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Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 12:15 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:24 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am Non Duality (Idealism)
Idealism is based on ideas, and/or the primacy of the mental over the material. Nondualism is NOT idealism.
Yes, but in general Non Dualism is either Physicalism or Idealism. I thought this thread headed down the Idealism path. Maybe I was wrong.
Nondualism isn't physicalism or idealism.
Ok, we have an Impasse.
anni
Posts: 19
Joined: March 8th, 2022, 7:04 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by anni »

Well, it seems that they are different definition of idealism..

https://rupertspira.com/non-duality/blo ... on-duality
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 5th, 2022, 11:27 am
Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 12:15 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:24 am
Idealism is based on ideas, and/or the primacy of the mental over the material. Nondualism is NOT idealism.
Yes, but in general Non Dualism is either Physicalism or Idealism. I thought this thread headed down the Idealism path. Maybe I was wrong.
Nondualism isn't physicalism or idealism.
Ok, we have an Impasse.
Again: materialism and idealism are based on dualism. Again: I'm a nondualist.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 5th, 2022, 12:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 5th, 2022, 11:27 am
Atla wrote: April 4th, 2022, 12:15 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 11:35 am
Yes, but in general Non Dualism is either Physicalism or Idealism. I thought this thread headed down the Idealism path. Maybe I was wrong.
Nondualism isn't physicalism or idealism.
Ok, we have an Impasse.
Again: materialism and idealism are based on dualism. Again: I'm a nondualist.
In what possible sense can Materialism or Idealism be considered Dualistic.
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 6th, 2022, 7:24 am In what possible sense can Materialism or Idealism be considered Dualistic.
They are derived from the mind-body dualism. As I wrote above:
Atla wrote:I'd say, Descartes and others made it official that there is a mental/material split. The old mind/body problem, set into stone. So most of Western philosophy can be divided into two camps: idealists who hold that the mental is fundamental, and materialists who hold that the material is fundamental. (And there a few lesser camps who think that they are equally fundamental etc.)

So these two camps have been duking it out for centuries, trying to figure out who is right. Idealists think that existence is fundamentally mental, it's made of ideas, consciousness, experience etc. For example matter is just something that appears in consciousness. Or that the world is literally in our mind. Things like this.

Nondualism however holds that the mental/material split never existed in the first place because they are one and the same thing, so every camp above is slightly crazy.
Most contemporary Western philosophers are extremely inept, so they'll even convince themselves that views like eliminative materialism for example are true monisms, they aren't based on dualism.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
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Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 6th, 2022, 7:24 am In what possible sense can Materialism or Idealism be considered Dualistic.
They are derived from the mind-body dualism. As I wrote above:
Atla wrote:I'd say, Descartes and others made it official that there is a mental/material split. The old mind/body problem, set into stone. So most of Western philosophy can be divided into two camps: idealists who hold that the mental is fundamental, and materialists who hold that the material is fundamental. (And there a few lesser camps who think that they are equally fundamental etc.)

So these two camps have been duking it out for centuries, trying to figure out who is right. Idealists think that existence is fundamentally mental, it's made of ideas, consciousness, experience etc. For example matter is just something that appears in consciousness. Or that the world is literally in our mind. Things like this.

Nondualism however holds that the mental/material split never existed in the first place because they are one and the same thing, so every camp above is slightly crazy.
Most contemporary Western philosophers are extremely inept, so they'll even convince themselves that views like eliminative materialism for example are true monisms, they aren't based on dualism.
I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Atla
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Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am
Atla wrote: April 6th, 2022, 12:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 6th, 2022, 7:24 am In what possible sense can Materialism or Idealism be considered Dualistic.
They are derived from the mind-body dualism. As I wrote above:
Atla wrote:I'd say, Descartes and others made it official that there is a mental/material split. The old mind/body problem, set into stone. So most of Western philosophy can be divided into two camps: idealists who hold that the mental is fundamental, and materialists who hold that the material is fundamental. (And there a few lesser camps who think that they are equally fundamental etc.)

So these two camps have been duking it out for centuries, trying to figure out who is right. Idealists think that existence is fundamentally mental, it's made of ideas, consciousness, experience etc. For example matter is just something that appears in consciousness. Or that the world is literally in our mind. Things like this.

Nondualism however holds that the mental/material split never existed in the first place because they are one and the same thing, so every camp above is slightly crazy.
Most contemporary Western philosophers are extremely inept, so they'll even convince themselves that views like eliminative materialism for example are true monisms, they aren't based on dualism.
I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Again: yes that's what materialists and idealists BELIEVE and they are wrong. Western philosophers have been chasing their own tails for at least 400 years.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Our philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:

materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental

But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material

"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
True philosophy points to the Moon
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: Non-Duality is terrifying

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: April 8th, 2022, 10:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 7th, 2022, 7:48 am I don't think Materialists think their Materialism is based on Dualism and I don't think Idealists think their Idealism is based on Dualism. Materialists believe everything is a Phenomenon of the Physical Universe that Science can describe. They Believe Consciousness is a Material (Matter, Energy Space) Phenomenon. Everything is Physical. There is no Dualism in this. Idealists believe everything is a Phenomenon of Consciousness. They believe the Material World is a Conscious Phenomenon. Everything is Consciousness. There is no Dualism in this either. Both of these viewpoints may talk about how their viewpoint is related to Dualism but that's just talk. Their Monisms have no actual Basis or derivation from Dualism.

I think your position is that there is no such things as Material and Consciousness. So you think you are starting from a Non Dualist position. But you still have to formulate your Non Dualism by stating the Non Existence of the Material and the Conscious. I think you are drowning yourself with Semantics and definitions.

Impasse!!!!
Our philosophers have convinced themselves that the definitions are:

materialism: existence is material
idealism: existence is mental

But the real definitions are:
materialism: the world is material, not mental
idealism: the world is mental, not material

"Exclusory" dualisms, this but not that. Deep within the Western psyche, pervasive in all Western thinking is a universal split between the mental and metarial, and we simply no longer notice this. There is an inherent double-vision, where one of the two is blank, but it's still a double-vision. It's really interesting, I didn't realize this either before science forced nondual thinking on me. The split is deep down at the base of our thinking, covered by other layers and we just don't see that it's there.
I think your distinctions make no difference.
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