Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Peter Holmes
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Peter Holmes »

SteveKlinko wrote: June 10th, 2022, 11:51 am
Peter Holmes wrote: June 10th, 2022, 11:35 am
SteveKlinko wrote: June 10th, 2022, 11:10 am
Peter Holmes wrote: June 10th, 2022, 10:52 am

We've evolved to perceive reflected light of certain frequencies, and we call them colours, such as red. And you've been suckered by the seemingly profound philosophical question: ah, but what and where is redness? We can't find it in the brain, so it must be a non-physical thing.

And the burden of proof for that claim is yours. An argument from ignorance or incredulity won't do.
What makes you think that the Redness is in fact a product of Neural Activity? Redness seems Categorically different from Neurons and Chemistry and Electrochemical Activity. How do you Logically Explain that the Redness is a Physical process? I know you can't because nobody can. But why would you cling to that Incoherent Belief? You are just expressing a Religious type of Belief in Physicalism. If that is the case we are at an Impasse because it is virtually impossible to change the Mind of a Believer.
You seem confused. Logic deals with language, not reality. Whether redness exists as a non-physical thing has nothing to do with language, and therefore nothing to do with logic.

And you can't shift the burden of proof, much as you want and need to. Either demonstrate the existence of redness as a non-physical thing, or stfu. Please don't waste any more of your/our time with your appeal to ignorance or incredulity.
I can Nudge you in the right direction in your Thinking, but it looks like in your case, I cannot make you Think. Bye to You.
QED.
Peter Holmes
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Peter Holmes »

QED. A non-physical explanation of anything, including consciousness, is an appeal to magic, which is a childish superstition.

And to reject that superstition is to not be thinking straight, or thinking at all.

Such is the fruit of non-physicalism. At least, I've never come across a non-physical claim of any substance. (Ha-ha.)
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

To those who have been posting recently - I won't make you go through and read all my posts - as near as I can recall I was pointing out that physicalism has a problem in that at face value it seems to deny consciousness because consciousness (qualia, thoughts, emotions) has no mass or physical dimensions. I know of a few possible solutions (there are probably others) - to whit, substance dualism or property dualism. Substance dualism has no appeal for me. But property dualism looks interesting. As I see it, if property dualism, then (some kind of) consciousness itself is a property of matter. It may seem weird, because, if property dualism, then it is at least possible that literally everything is conscious - but I haven't found any reason to reject the idea that this could be the case. Property dualism itself could actually be seen as merely modifying physicalism so that consciousness (or at least the properties of consciousness) are included among the properties of matter. It does seem to fit what I know of reality.
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

anonymous66 wrote: May 23rd, 2018, 8:03 am I've been listening to and reading Daniel Dennett, Patricia Churchland, David Chalmers, John Searle and Thomas Nagel the last couple of years, and have been thinking a lot about consciousness.
There was a time when I was convinced that the physical is all there is, but after looking into consciousness for a while, I've had to give up that assumption.

My reasoning goes like this: If it is assumed that the physical is all there is, then consciousness must reduce to the physical and then mental states don't actually exist (they're just chemical reactions). If physicalism, then eliminative materialism but eliminative materialism is false (because if I know anything, I know I have mental states). (I've also looked into behaviorism, identity theory and functionalism).

I also reject substance dualism ( I don't believe in souls). I can't make any sense of idealism. I do have some affinity for property dualism- the concept that consciousness itself is a basic property of the universe, but I acknowledge that it has issues as well.

What about you? What do you make of consciousness? Do you have a favorite theory? Who has influenced your thinking?
Of course I would agree. The exclusivity of material matter/the nature of a thing in itself, has not been proven to possess Agency. In other words, the purpose of matter corresponds with a means to some end (i.e., the emergence of animate matter). If there exits nothing but matter, it would preclude the existence of mind (self-consciousness). Hence, not only would you have talking neuron's, you'd have talking trees and other inanimate matter that have Agency.

If a materialist wants to argue that material entities (quantities) take primacy over qualitative one's, that's fine. But it bears the burden of explaining those same qualitative relationships between mind and matter ex nihilo (matter being primary). In other words, how a human being with a complex biological system of matter emerges from matter. Since matter exists now, they should be able to demonstrate how mind exists now. In the alternative, they simply need to explain how matter came into existence ex nihilo.
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Sy Borg »

anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Sy Borg wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 8:20 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
The people I've been reading are all monists - in that they believe there is only one type of matter (they don't believe in souls) its just that they also believe that that one type of matter has mental properties (some form of consciousness or proto-consciousness).
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

anonymous66 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 8:20 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
The people I've been reading are all monists - in that they believe there is only one type of matter (they don't believe in souls) its just that they also believe that that one type of matter has mental properties (some form of consciousness or proto-consciousness).
And again, these beliefs do obviously align with reality, because some physical things do have consciousness.
Belindi
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Belindi »

Anonymouse wrote:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Neither do running, breathing, eating, swimming, riding a horse, educating a child, or doing classical logic have physical qualities.Yet these all exist.
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Belindi wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:38 am Anonymouse wrote:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Neither do running, breathing, eating, swimming, riding a horse, educating a child, or doing classical logic have physical qualities.Yet these all exist.
All the examples you just listed do have physical qualities.

Running (I move - measurable dimensions), breathing ( I move - measurable dimensions), eating (I move, measurable dimensions), swimming ( I move - measurable dimension), riding a horse (I move - measurable dimensions) educating a child (movement required - measurable dimensions) , doing classical logic (talking required - movement - measurable dimensions)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Sy Borg »

anonymous66 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 8:20 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
The people I've been reading are all monists - in that they believe there is only one type of matter (they don't believe in souls) its just that they also believe that that one type of matter has mental properties (some form of consciousness or proto-consciousness).
Christof Koch? Paul Davies?

What do those authors think about the potential for AI to become sentient?
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Sy Borg wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:28 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 6:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 8:20 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
The people I've been reading are all monists - in that they believe there is only one type of matter (they don't believe in souls) its just that they also believe that that one type of matter has mental properties (some form of consciousness or proto-consciousness).
Christof Koch? Paul Davies?

What do those authors think about the potential for AI to become sentient?
I've been influenced most by Thomas Nagel - but I've read some Galen Strawsom as well. I don't know their views on AI sentience. I don't think it's logically impossible for an AI to be sentient - but after reading John Searle, I wonder if there will ever be a way to tell if an AI (created by man) is actually sentient, or just simulating consciousness.

Some more thoughts along the same lines (I don't remember where I read this example) if one day we develop the ability to travel throughout the galaxy, and we encounter what appears to be a sentient being made entirely of rock (think Korg from the Avengers movies) there would be no reason to reject the idea that that creature is sentient. There are no logical contradictions involved.

By the way I have read The Mind of God by Paul Davies and listened to Davies on youtube - I like what I've heard and read so far - but I don't know his views on consciousness.
Belindi
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by Belindi »

anonymous66 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:18 am
Belindi wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:38 am Anonymouse wrote:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Neither do running, breathing, eating, swimming, riding a horse, educating a child, or doing classical logic have physical qualities.Yet these all exist.
All the examples you just listed do have physical qualities.

Running (I move - measurable dimensions), breathing ( I move - measurable dimensions), eating (I move, measurable dimensions), swimming ( I move - measurable dimension), riding a horse (I move - measurable dimensions) educating a child (movement required - measurable dimensions) , doing classical logic (talking required - movement - measurable dimensions)
Anonymouse had written:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
But running, teaching,swimming, riding a horse, and being are processes not things. Processes may have qualities attributed to them but they don't have dimensions of space or time unless these are arbitrarily fixed to them.

There are no things there are only processes. What we conventionally call a thing is a reification, i.e. thingification, of one or more processes.

How does reification affect a quale? A quale too is a reified process; the process of experiencing.
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Belindi wrote: September 24th, 2022, 9:15 am
anonymous66 wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 9:18 am
Belindi wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 7:38 am Anonymouse wrote:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Neither do running, breathing, eating, swimming, riding a horse, educating a child, or doing classical logic have physical qualities.Yet these all exist.
All the examples you just listed do have physical qualities.

Running (I move - measurable dimensions), breathing ( I move - measurable dimensions), eating (I move, measurable dimensions), swimming ( I move - measurable dimension), riding a horse (I move - measurable dimensions) educating a child (movement required - measurable dimensions) , doing classical logic (talking required - movement - measurable dimensions)
Anonymouse had written:
Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
But running, teaching,swimming, riding a horse, and being are processes not things. Processes may have qualities attributed to them but they don't have dimensions of space or time unless these are arbitrarily fixed to them.

There are no things there are only processes. What we conventionally call a thing is a reification, i.e. thingification, of one or more processes.

How does reification affect a quale? A quale too is a reified process; the process of experiencing.
Your original post suggested you were talking in terms of some sort of physicalism - some people ( Including myself) see property dualism as just another type of physicalism - it's just that in addition to physical qualities, matter also has mental properties. It's not even really a controversial view, is it? After all humans are physical objects and they do have mental properties.

But you now appear to have switched and are now talking in terms of process philosophy - have you been reading Whitehead?
anonymous66
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Re: Whatever Consciousness is, it's Not Physical (or reducible to physical).

Post by anonymous66 »

Sy Borg wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 8:20 pm
anonymous66 wrote: September 22nd, 2022, 12:35 pm Adding to my last post - if one rejects substance dualism - which I do - then one must accept we are currently living in a world in which at least some physical objects have the property of consciousness (humans are physical objects, right?)... It seems to me that (at least some) people who believe in property dualism take the next step and suggest that it is at least possible that every physical object has some kind of consciousness.

Phsyicalism - everything that exists can be described by it's physical properties - the problem is qualia don't have mass or dimensions.
Substance dualism - there 2 kinds of matter - mental stuff (souls) and physical stuff.
Property dualism - consciousness is another property of matter. (in addition to mass and dimensions, there is another physical property - consciousness).
Panpsychism, the belief that elements of consciousness reside in all things, is sometimes based on a monist worldview, often IIT or related concepts, rather than a dualist one. Some figure that it feels like something to process information, and more so with greater integration. So, since everything processes information, then everything that is not conscious is proto-conscious.
I've come across this before (doesn't David Chalmers talk about something similar?) and it is certainly compatible with what I've been reading about property dualism.
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