Fooloso4 wrote: ↑
August 20th, 2018, 8:39 pm
If something is a concrete reality then it is not only possible but actual.
I mean we try to posit abstractions like the world without subjects as concrete realities. Semantics, I guess.
How does this contradict my claim that our universe has us as conscious subjects?
It contradicts your claim that the being of the uninhabited regions of our universe are not dependent on the being of us, the subjects of the universe.
You cannot see things as a spatiotemporal whole from within our spatiotemporal limits.
I think in this case I can see the universe as a whole, for this philosophical reasoning.
Yes, he says a great deal more and also attempts to show what he cannot say. Claiming it is your interpretation is not sufficient. You need to be able to defend that interpretation in light of what the text actually says. If you make claims that are inconsistent with what he says then you are no longer interpreting or interpreting correctly.
I refer to the words he used: "...ceases", not "ceases for me". We need not go deeper into his text in this context.
So then, what does it mean that the world as a whole ceases not just for you but absolutely since subjects as a whole do no cease when you cease to exist?
If I were the only subject in the universe, the world would cease to exist absolutely, and if there were no subjects, the world does not exist, absolutely. Only if there is the metaphysical subject, which is the ontological precondition of the being of the world, can we say that there is the world or anything.
It seems that our discussion does not lead anywhere, and therefore I think it is time for a short summary of what I think of it.
I guess it is easy for you to imagine you are dead. You may believe that you can experience something also after death, but if not, what then? What has happened? The world has not changed much, it just does not exist. Nothing exists. Nothing has ever existed, because time has ended. But we are still here, and others, and we guarantee that the world exists. If it were possible to somehow remove all of us from the universe, the universe would not exist, and this time absolutely, for there would be no one to guarantee its existence. But the world would not change much, it would only cease to exist. So the world exists and does not exist. This is what logicians call contradiction. And the only way to avoid the contradiction is to understand that existence is always subjective, that there must always be subjects in the universe. Even all the black holes in the universe are subjective in the sense that they have a relationship with our being here and other subjects wherever they happen to be.
Now I am sure you do not see any kind of a paradox or contradiction here, and I claim this is because you have only an external perspective to things, also to yourself. It is the viewpoint of a physicist. I would say you reify yourself. My perspective is internal, subjective, and I see subjective reality as the basic reality we are in. When I die, others say some cells die, and time goes on, but in fact time ends if death is the final event.
So I was wrong when I said I trusted you would understand what I am claiming. In fact we live on different planets. I can understand your external point of view somehow, but only somehow, and I think it is not an adequate way of seeing things. So our diagreement seems to be very deep in the core of things. It all concentrates on the question of whether the hypothetical world without subjects can or cannot exist. So it is a question of the meaning of 'existence'. For me existence is subjective, for you objective, seen from the perspective of physics. So we speak different languages, and I do not think they can be translated into each other. No dialogue, but parallel monologues, as usual.
To make a short summary of my position:
The subject is the absolute.
The subject needs the world for its being and self-awareness.
Therefore the subject-world relationship is the Archimedean point or reality. Without it there is nothing, and everything that happens, happens within this relationship.