Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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chewybrain wrote:You wish to throw out: the bath water, the baby, the tub, and then to burn down the house just to be sure. If you could find something useful in religion, why shouldn't you adopt it, not because the religion says so, but because it could make your life better?
You are flying off on a tangent like a rocketship escaping into orbit.

Emphasizing your WRONG argument with hyperbolas does not help your case at all.

Religion has no use in modern society. Religion was VERY useful in the evolution of societies, and in the preservation and survival of groups among competing groups. It also used to give good service as solace. It used to be the only refuge for the sick and dying. It used to explain things. It used to move masses of people toward a common goal. It used to give meaning to people's lives.

But all, and I stand by this, ALL functions that religion served for humankind, have been replaced.

Yes, we can throw away religion and our quality of life would not feel even a dent.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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chewybrian wrote: June 16th, 2018, 10:59 am
-1- wrote: June 13th, 2018, 3:26 pmThis is why I have an emotional commitment to everything reasonable, logical and knowledgeable. This is why I am pronouncedly anti-religion.
Would you agree that finance is a science? (...)
So, it begs the question: what is your goal in your worship of science?
I don't worship science. "Worshipping" is an ideological expression you can't divorce yourself from, because you are so deeply seeped in religion. Religion, religion, religion, that's all you think, and worship is the only emotive and cognitive way you can describe any strong affiliation.

I said I don't worship science. So please stop saying that as if I said that, and as if it were a fact. It is not a fact.

That's one.

Two is that your personal failure in life is not my fault. At all. Nor is it a fault of science, nor of logical thinking, nor of reason. Your personal failure is your business, you ought not to extrapolate that everything is bad because you had a bad experience. That's near-sighted, and not at all conducive to your argument.

Please I beg you to stop forever referring to my relationship to science as science is my worship. If you continue, I write you off, as your being a person who can't understand a simple thing even.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:49 am Perception is only half of the perception/intellect continuum. Everyone is familiar with optical illusions and sleight of hand and CGI, so we "know" more than we can perceive.
I'd suggest that we only think we know more than we can perceive. Actually since we can only think based on inaccurate perception all our thinking may come to false conclusions. GIGO as my It friends say.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 12:37 amReligion has no use in modern society. Religion was VERY useful in the evolution of societies, and in the preservation and survival of groups among competing groups. It also used to give good service as solace. It used to be the only refuge for the sick and dying. It used to explain things. It used to move masses of people toward a common goal. It used to give meaning to people's lives.

But all, and I stand by this, ALL functions that religion served for humankind, have been replaced.

Yes, we can throw away religion and our quality of life would not feel even a dent.
I'd suggest that if you could 'prove' beyond any doubt in the minds of currently religious people that religion was all false then you'd have on your hands a lot of very traumatised people. Many would fall prey to depression, but a few would undoubtedly resort to extreme violence against you. 'Nobody' as Douglas Adams wrote 'likes a smart ****'.
Fortunately for them, and you, one of the functions of religion is to allow people to avoid having to face up to change by saying that 'god says this thing doesn't change'; thus you will be unsuccessful in convincing the majority of religious people of your view.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 4:39 am I'd suggest that if you could 'prove' beyond any doubt in the minds of currently religious people that religion was all false then you'd have on your hands a lot of very traumatised people. Many would fall prey to depression, but a few would undoubtedly resort to extreme violence against you. 'Nobody' as Douglas Adams wrote 'likes a smart ****'.
Fortunately for them, and you, one of the functions of religion is to allow people to avoid having to face up to change by saying that 'god says this thing doesn't change'; thus you will be unsuccessful in convincing the majority of religious people of your view.
You are right. Nobody has changed belief systems due to logical reasons.

But... but... I am not alone. The world has finally come to the sober realization that religion and god-worship is an atavistic dinosaur. It has three strongholds in the world presently: the Muslim world, India, and the United States of America. Even South American Catholics are becoming secularized. The Muslim world is expanding, due to its internal population explosion.

On the other hand, almost the entire Europe, Australia and large chunks of Asia (namely ex and current communist countries) are becoming entirely non-religious.

Those who think the trend is childish, or reversible, they have their heads in the sand.

This is not due to some zealot's work who wants to erase religionism and has succeeded in that work like Hitler convinced the German nation about anti-Semitism. It is due to many other factors. One is that all the god-gaps have disappeared, there is safety in the world. The knowledge gap disappeared. The healing gap disappeared. Whatever.

The other reason religions can't retain followers is the emotional value of the religion's discriminatory behaviour. Gay people are coming of the closed by the droves, and they bring much support with them against Leviticus, and in turn, against religionism.

Bad racial relations are smeared on the Republicans and on right wing sympathisers. I am not sure if the accusation stands on an individual basis on Reps and on rednecks; but they got the bad rap, because in people's minds (both left- and right wing) "racist" is more closely associated with right wing skinhead fat guys.

And the third thing that repels people from religion is not ethical, like these above two, but economical and the convenience of it. It is easier to not have every sperm sacred. It is easier to go for abortions than not. It boils down to such trivial and childish, but in essence basic and fundamental experiences as it is easier to sleep in on Sunday mornings than to go to church.

Lastly, the more education a person gets, the more likely he or she will be to turn from the church. This is a general rule with many exceptions, but the trend is solid. As the population gets more and more educated, the more people become enlightened, and less and less they see the point in believing in dogma and passing the belief down to their children.

Americans cherish freedom, liberty, independence. The biggest independence a human can dream to achieve is to throw away the yoke of having a merciful/merciless, all-powerful, controlling, and punitive overlord sitting on his or her neck, which is none other than a benevolent but cruel dictator, the very god s/he is reluctant to throw away.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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MidiChlorian wrote: June 11th, 2018, 3:15 pm
Mark1955 wrote: June 11th, 2018, 4:48 am I'd suggest the opposite, since we are aware we cannot trust our perceptions all our knowledge may be simply false belief based on erroneous perception.

Example a hyper-intelligent species [by human standards] have the ability to construct a neural net of the minds of a lesser species such that those minds believe they are interacting in a real world. They then study the minds as part of an experiment into mental evolution. If they want to study the evolution of religious ideas they implant certain ideas into an individual's head by way of 'dreams', he writes a popular book and off we go.............
An interesting assumption "Mark1955" and based on the context of what you have written above, might imply that you may have experienced some form altered reality but it would not necessarily be instigated from implanting dreams but altering the time line, specifically from what a person may have remembered from experiencing it and now in looking back, the related data seems to have changed. I mention this because I have experienced similar changes as registered in memory, having studied or read specific text and now reading or studying it again, the current seems to have changed. This would relate to time, in that I can recall as a child having experienced a well documented Hurricane and my mother also recalls what I did, because she had experienced it with me but now in looking back to the historical data provided, the date of this said event has changed and would not have occurred at the time I remembered it because I would have been five years younger and not been in the same place as I remember.
This may be different from the topics question being present verses past reality but does seem to apply to what you have presented above?
I was considering entirely the now, although I entirely agree that memory is also unreliable.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:15 amThe world has finally come to the sober realization that religion and god-worship is an atavistic dinosaur. It has three strongholds in the world presently: the Muslim world, India, and the United States of America. Even South American Catholics are becoming secularized. The Muslim world is expanding, due to its internal population explosion.

On the other hand, almost the entire Europe, Australia and large chunks of Asia (namely ex and current communist countries) are becoming entirely non-religious.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it doesn't quite match mine.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:38 am
-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:15 amThe world has finally come to the sober realization that religion and god-worship is an atavistic dinosaur. It has three strongholds in the world presently: the Muslim world, India, and the United States of America. Even South American Catholics are becoming secularized. The Muslim world is expanding, due to its internal population explosion.

On the other hand, almost the entire Europe, Australia and large chunks of Asia (namely ex and current communist countries) are becoming entirely non-religious.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it doesn't quite match mine.
If you are seeped in an entirely American culture, your perception of world affairs may be filtered. American media is a powerful propaganda machine.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:42 am
Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:38 am
I'm not sure where you are getting your information from but it doesn't quite match mine.
If you are seeped in an entirely American culture, your perception of world affairs may be filtered. American media is a powerful propaganda machine.
I read you're in Nottingham, England. Well, I can't argue with you. Your perception is yours, mine is mine. Unless you cite facts that contradict my claims, this is where the buck stops.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 12:37 am
chewybrain wrote:You wish to throw out: the bath water, the baby, the tub, and then to burn down the house just to be sure. If you could find something useful in religion, why shouldn't you adopt it, not because the religion says so, but because it could make your life better?
Emphasizing your WRONG argument with hyperbolas does not help your case at all.
Nowhere in anything I said did I use a curve formed by the intersection of a double right circular cone with a plane that cuts both halves of the cone to try to prove my point.
-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 12:31 am
chewybrian wrote: June 16th, 2018, 10:59 amScience is a tool, not a religion; I've never tried to convert anyone to my lawn mower.
I never said I proselytize science. For reference, please see above.
You said you want to proselytize knowledge, reason and logic. When I restated as 'worship science', I was not trying to twist the argument (and I think you know this). Proselytize does mean to attempt to convert others to your religion, after all. So, perhaps unintentionally, you were saying that knowledge, reason and logic form a religion for you. And, science was just short hand for the other three.
-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 12:49 amTwo is that your personal failure in life is not my fault. At all. Nor is it a fault of science, nor of logical thinking, nor of reason. Your personal failure is your business, you ought not to extrapolate that everything is bad because you had a bad experience. That's near-sighted, and not at all conducive to your argument.


This was a demonstration of the fact that thinking you have all the answers can be dangerous. There is more to life than knowledge, logic or reason. These things alone will not make you happy. Of course, you ignored my question: what do you expect to gain by proselytizing knowledge, reason and logic? Surely, these must be the means, not the end; so, what is the end?
-1- wrote: June 17th, 2018, 5:15 amAmericans cherish freedom, liberty, independence. The biggest independence a human can dream to achieve is to throw away the yoke of having a merciful/merciless, all-powerful, controlling, and punitive overlord sitting on his or her neck, which is none other than a benevolent but cruel dictator, the very god s/he is reluctant to throw away.
I would say the best form of independence is having a free will, but you don't seem to believe in that, either. Again, it begs the question of what drives you in that belief system. Why do you even want to go on living if you are not driving the bus? I'm not trying to put you down; I genuinely want to understand what motivates people in this mindset. "Winning" is losing, isn't it?
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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Mark1955 wrote: June 17th, 2018, 4:29 am
LuckyR wrote: June 10th, 2018, 2:49 am Perception is only half of the perception/intellect continuum. Everyone is familiar with optical illusions and sleight of hand and CGI, so we "know" more than we can perceive.
I'd suggest that we only think we know more than we can perceive. Actually since we can only think based on inaccurate perception all our thinking may come to false conclusions. GIGO as my It friends say.
So when you see a pretty assistant sawn in half in a box on stage, you think she is really sawn in half?

No. Experience trumps perception.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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Mark1955 wrote:I'd suggest that we only think we know more than we can perceive. Actually since we can only think based on inaccurate perception all our thinking may come to false conclusions. GIGO as my It friends say.
Good point. ...and also, aren't our thoughts themselves something that we perceive/experience? ...and therefore making our thoughts also a perception/experience?

LuckyR wrote:So when you see a pretty assistant sawn in half in a box on stage, you think she is really sawn in half?

No. Experience trumps perception.
How can one trump the other when these words are essentially interchangeable? (...both the noun and verb variations).

Don't we experience perceptions? -- or do we experience experiences? Do we perceive experiences? -- or do we perceive perceptions?

So what makes one trump the other? Aren't they the same, but with different names?

And if these words are not the same, then let me re-ask the topic question -- Can we trust our 'experiences' to tell us what's real?
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2018, 2:17 am
No. Experience trumps perception.
Absurd distinction. Meaningless.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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LuckyR wrote: June 18th, 2018, 2:17 am So when you see a pretty assistant sawn in half in a box on stage, you think she is really sawn in half?

No. Experience trumps perception.
Of course as several good murder mystery programs have used in the plot, one day it might be real and your experience will be wrong. As a more likely example, I pull the brake lever on my bike, my bike slows down and stops. Except one day the cable snaps and the bike doesn't stop. Accidents are nature's way of reminding us that cause and effect is not always as consistent as we'd like it to be.
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

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Except one day the cable snaps and the bike doesn't stop. Accidents are nature's way of reminding us that cause and effect is not always as consistent as we'd like it to be.
What an odd example. It strikes me that your example is one where cause and effect is 100% consistent.
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