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Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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ogbaby_d
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by ogbaby_d » July 11th, 2018, 2:16 am

Mark1955 wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 2:42 am
Eduk wrote:
July 6th, 2018, 5:33 am
Please correct me if I am wrong. You seem to be saying that everything anyone says/thinks not only can't be proved absolutely but is also partly wrong. Not just potentially partly wrong but absolutely partly wrong. I don't know how you can be so sure of yourself.
As far as I'm aware nothing can be ascertained with absolute certainty so while it is theoretically possible that you are absolutely right in a specific situation, probabilistically it's highly unlikely. Therefore the best psychological approach to all your decisions and actions is "I'm doing this because it seems the best option now, but I'll probably learn something down the road that means I could have done something better". This hopefully leads to a) a lack of arrogance about your decision making b) a willingness to accept some extra or different information when it comes to light and modify your actions accordingly.
Good response

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Wayne92587 » July 12th, 2018, 8:51 am

All knowing, the man created in the Image of God is a Know-it-All.

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akumaschamber
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by akumaschamber » July 18th, 2018, 11:11 am

RJG wrote:
June 7th, 2018, 9:27 pm
Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?
We can know with absolute certainty that we're having a present phenomenal experience. There's no way to know with certainty whether what we're perceiving matches our perception of it though. But I think there aren't good reasons to believe that what we're perceiving doesn't generally match what we're perceiving.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 18th, 2018, 10:27 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 2:42 am
As far as I'm aware nothing can be ascertained with absolute certainty so while it is theoretically possible that you are absolutely right in a specific situation, probabilistically it's highly unlikely. Therefore the best psychological approach to all your decisions and actions is "I'm doing this because it seems the best option now, but I'll probably learn something down the road that means I could have done something better". This hopefully leads to a) a lack of arrogance about your decision making b) a willingness to accept some extra or different information when it comes to light and modify your actions accordingly.
1) Practical issues: to consciously think about all of - or even, say, 5 percent of one's actions and decisions this way would be an onorous task and I see no reason to believe it would be better than not doing it nearly all of the time. IOW simply making decisions and performing actions without distancing myself and considering I might be wrong and reminding myself to review later. A ride on my bike to the store would become this odd, potentially dangerous even more complicated task.
2) Theoretical issue: you have an approach that you are committed to. IOW your metaposition, while you may doubt it on occasion, is one you are committed to. For example, you state that being certain is statistically highly unlikely to be correct. But this is now a certain position. We cannot avoid being certain, as a rule. We can drive out that certainty to a meta-level, and there we are certain about perception in relation to reality, or epistemology. IOW the metaphysics that leads one to believe one cannot be certain one is certain about.

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » July 18th, 2018, 10:30 pm

I think further that infinite regresses get pulled in also. The best psychological approach is X, in this case your version of how one should think in relation to actions and decisions. One attempts this. Did I actually do it? Was it correct? Was each part of the formulation correct? Was my evaluation of my formulation and application correct? I can't see where one can come up with any likelihoods or statistics. How does one know when to stop going up to higher meta-levels?

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Felix » July 19th, 2018, 2:54 am

"How does one know when to stop going up to higher meta-levels?"

Generally one is stymied by insufficient recall ability, and/or suppressed traumatic memories. For example, in trying to recall one's past lives, one must get over the hurdle of one's last death and current lifes birth trauma. It can get easier after that.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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RJG
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by RJG » July 19th, 2018, 7:27 am

avatarakumaschamber wrote:We can know with absolute certainty that we're having a present phenomenal experience. There's no way to know with certainty whether what we're perceiving matches our perception of it though.
Agreed.

avatarakumaschamber wrote:But I think there aren't good reasons to believe that what we're perceiving doesn't generally match what we're perceiving.
Are there any good reasons to believe that they 'do' match?

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Mark1955
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Mark1955 » July 29th, 2018, 3:35 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 10:27 pm
Mark1955 wrote:
July 9th, 2018, 2:42 am
As far as I'm aware nothing can be ascertained with absolute certainty so while it is theoretically possible that you are absolutely right in a specific situation, probabilistically it's highly unlikely. Therefore the best psychological approach to all your decisions and actions is "I'm doing this because it seems the best option now, but I'll probably learn something down the road that means I could have done something better". This hopefully leads to a) a lack of arrogance about your decision making b) a willingness to accept some extra or different information when it comes to light and modify your actions accordingly.
1) Practical issues: to consciously think about all of - or even, say, 5 percent of one's actions and decisions this way would be an onorous task and I see no reason to believe it would be better than not doing it nearly all of the time. IOW simply making decisions and performing actions without distancing myself and considering I might be wrong and reminding myself to review later. A ride on my bike to the store would become this odd, potentially dangerous even more complicated task.
I've used this example before because it really happened to me. Once I was riding to work on my bike and I pulled the brake levers to stop at a red light. I stopped, but not in the way I wanted, the front brake caliper broke and disconnected from the frame, went 70% of the way round the wheel and jammed, I went over the handlebars and hit the road hard. Concussion, lacerations and a trip to A&E followed. Conclusions, check your bike for faults more often, ride a bit slower.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
July 18th, 2018, 10:27 pm
2) Theoretical issue: you have an approach that you are committed to. IOW your metaposition, while you may doubt it on occasion, is one you are committed to. For example, you state that being certain is statistically highly unlikely to be correct. But this is now a certain position. We cannot avoid being certain, as a rule. We can drive out that certainty to a meta-level, and there we are certain about perception in relation to reality, or epistemology. IOW the metaphysics that leads one to believe one cannot be certain one is certain about.
Well for now, but I've read some fairly interesting arguments that explain why we might all be part of a 'sentient' computer game. If the evidence were to get stronger they maybe everything we do is determined by an outside force, so all our decisions are really not our at all. That would literally change the ball game.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Frewah
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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Frewah » October 3rd, 2018, 4:58 pm

Well, I suppose we could live in some sort of virtual reality world as suggested in the film "The matrix". The question then becomes whether there is a different reality beyond the one we perceive. Some people believe that we live in some kind of cosmological zoo where portions of reality would be created for us. Perhaps these alien zookeepers wouldn't want us to see that the Milky Way has been conquered or similar...

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by LuckyR » October 3rd, 2018, 6:18 pm

Frewah wrote:
October 3rd, 2018, 4:58 pm
Well, I suppose we could live in some sort of virtual reality world as suggested in the film "The matrix". The question then becomes whether there is a different reality beyond the one we perceive. Some people believe that we live in some kind of cosmological zoo where portions of reality would be created for us. Perhaps these alien zookeepers wouldn't want us to see that the Milky Way has been conquered or similar...
Well, I don't think anyone "believes" this, though many certainly ponder or even suspect this.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Can we trust our perceptions to tell us what's real?

Post by Frewah » October 3rd, 2018, 6:38 pm

There’s an entry in wikipedia, it’s called the ”Zoo hypothesis”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoo_hypothesis

At least it makes more sense than the idea that aliens would want to create some kind of hybrid. I think you would be more likely to mate successfully with a dandelion than with an alien. At least you would come from the same tree of life. The ideas that some of these people have are among the worst that I have had the unfortune to hear.

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