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How can we believe our senses?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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SisyphusHappy
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How can we believe our senses?

Post by SisyphusHappy » June 23rd, 2018, 11:06 am

The thought has been haunting me for quite a while, and is terrifying in itself. Honestly, the very nature of the question I have would make it impossible for me to take your replies. However, I do need to get this off my mind, and at the same time I am betting on the (better) possibility. For my sanity. But I digress. Onwards.

First, are you aware of certain hallucinogenics or psychedelics, drugs such as 'shrooms or LSD? If not, these drugs have (to a lesser extent) the ability to shroud your perception and senses, making you "perceive" what isn't there. From what I've heard, a man on shrooms might even think he's sleeping at home, while he's lying down in a sewage pipe covered in defecate. (if anyone has proof or information refuting, please provide the information. I'd like to know more about this.) Apparently, the effects can range from simple visual effects to a skewed sense of time and changed perception of reality. This raised its own red flags for me, and several questions popped up. Are the perceived senses enough to physically restrain us? If I perceive a wall where there isn't any, then will I still be able to walk through it? And, will the effects of these drugs slowly become inefficient and therefore, more and more quantity of the drug would have to be taken to have the same effect? Is it possible for the drug to lose all of its potency?
Now, just imagine you're a caged monkey, an "experiment" if you will, and the "experimenters" keep you on these drugs 24/7. Your perceived reality is completely controlled, and most importantly, fake. You sleep in a house that doesn't exist. You have friends that don't exist. You eat food that isn't real. And yet you can't tell.
Now, the idea above is quite moronic, seeing as it is not viable AT ALL, at least considering the state of the earth as we know it is true. But, my paranoia is really another case, a viable one, and that makes it worse - I can't use logic and rationality to drive away the thought. Or maybe my rationality has been distorted from the paranoia? Either way, I'd like your input - worst case scenario, I'm asking people who don't exist and get answers that aren't there, so I'm really just asking my subconscious for answers. Which is fine. In the best case scenario, I'm just paranoid and you all can allay my fears.

Now, really, this is just conjecture and nothing can be said to prove or disprove it, making it nothing but hypothesis. It's just another idea. I don't truly believe that the hypothesis is true, I'm simply saying that considering the possibility itself is terrifying to the extreme.

Let's assume that our world, or our earth, isn't real - it's a figment of someone's imagination as a result of a drug induced hallucination. From my perspective, it's obviously me that's real. From yours, its you. Now, the "drug" they're using, is something we know nothing about as we know nothing of their natural laws, the properties of their world, and so on. So as we exist in a "drug" induced stupor, they study the effects of the drugs, of perceived reality, of a universe with different natural laws.

There's the motive. I just need your input, add what you feel should be added, and above all - don't be afraid to question everything, and point out stupidity that I might have left in somehow.

Thanks.

Wayne92587
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Wayne92587 » June 28th, 2018, 11:44 am

Nothing is absolute, however, the Rational Mind allows us to make rational judgments.

Of course, the Rational Mind is the thing we must fear most when comes to Illusions of Reality, Absolutely Bad Knowledge being guileful, being duplicitous, a Natural Born Liar

Absolutely Band Knowledge having a dual quality is better known to be The Knowledge of Good and Evil.

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Burning ghost
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Burning ghost » June 28th, 2018, 12:30 pm

Simply view this from an emotional perspective. What feels right to you? What is “good” to you? Follow the good and don’t fret about the multitude of possibilities presented by the vast revelation of infinity, a concept we’re perpetually wrangling with and also trying to ignore becasue of our lack of intuitive understanding.

If you believe you see a baby alone and crying in the street do you go to its aid or walk on? What would you wish you were to do in that situation? Whatever road you choose know it, realise it and keep to it until you see fit to do otherwise.

Questions of reality and solipsism usually go hand in hand with a previously buried problem which one does not, or cannot, directly face right now. Simply navigate as best you can and be responsible about how you go about the tiny little things in your life. Plunging into existential crisis and address your hidden nihilistic tendencies is deeply painful and doing so blindly or willfully is no easier route, nor is avoiding such a task necessarily the best thing to do.

It’s your journey. Figure out as best you can and avoid stagnation and the excuses you use to hold yourself back. You’ll die over and over if you live, but if don’t die you’ll never be alive. Step out into the world, dip your toe into the pool (no need to plunge in head first!) be cautious by all means, but don’t neglect your bold nature to venture forth and explore and suffer, and fall and rise again from the ashes like the phoenix of fables old.

Fear is not real, danger is real. Don’t mistaken one for the other and the best way to assess them is to stick your head out. Everything in life or any worth is painfully received. If you’ve worked yourself up into such a state you can be pretty sure your imagined nightmare scenario is nowhere near as bad as the possible reality, yet also (in some darkened corners of the cosmological chasm that is human existence) also a picnic compared to the vile trove other claim as “just reason” and/or “justified action.”

Just remember that you like things and enjoy things. Respect that (meaning watch out for the beast of hedonism - there are monsters everywhere, but to my knowledge it is possible to tame them all, if not understand them.)
AKA badgerjelly

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Felix
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Felix » June 28th, 2018, 1:17 pm

Well, that's the old brain in a vat argument, or Plato's shadows on the cave wall allegory, which was modernized in the Matrix movies.

In yoga, it is said that the enlightened person is one who has woken up from the sensory dream, i.e., realized that material reality is a semi-conscious, non-lucid dream, and that is it's goal: to transcend the senses and experience the ultimate reality, which is nontemporal, or I should say, much more than temporal.
First, are you aware of certain hallucinogenics or psychedelics, drugs such as 'shrooms or LSD? If not, these drugs have (to a lesser extent) the ability to shroud your perception and senses, making you "perceive" what isn't there. From what I've heard, a man on shrooms might even think he's sleeping at home, while he's lying down in a sewage pipe covered in defecate.
It's actually like a lucid dream, you know you're dreaming, but then you have the memory of your non-drug altered state of awareness to compare it to, just as you have your dream state to compare to your waking state of consciousness. If you lacked that, then indeed you'd have no reason to doubt the veracity of the dream reality. But in a lucid dream, you have more control over your reality, not less.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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LuckyR
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by LuckyR » June 29th, 2018, 1:47 am

SisyphusHappy wrote:
June 23rd, 2018, 11:06 am
The thought has been haunting me for quite a while, and is terrifying in itself. Honestly, the very nature of the question I have would make it impossible for me to take your replies. However, I do need to get this off my mind, and at the same time I am betting on the (better) possibility. For my sanity. But I digress. Onwards.

First, are you aware of certain hallucinogenics or psychedelics, drugs such as 'shrooms or LSD? If not, these drugs have (to a lesser extent) the ability to shroud your perception and senses, making you "perceive" what isn't there. From what I've heard, a man on shrooms might even think he's sleeping at home, while he's lying down in a sewage pipe covered in defecate. (if anyone has proof or information refuting, please provide the information. I'd like to know more about this.) Apparently, the effects can range from simple visual effects to a skewed sense of time and changed perception of reality. This raised its own red flags for me, and several questions popped up. Are the perceived senses enough to physically restrain us? If I perceive a wall where there isn't any, then will I still be able to walk through it? And, will the effects of these drugs slowly become inefficient and therefore, more and more quantity of the drug would have to be taken to have the same effect? Is it possible for the drug to lose all of its potency?
Now, just imagine you're a caged monkey, an "experiment" if you will, and the "experimenters" keep you on these drugs 24/7. Your perceived reality is completely controlled, and most importantly, fake. You sleep in a house that doesn't exist. You have friends that don't exist. You eat food that isn't real. And yet you can't tell.
Now, the idea above is quite moronic, seeing as it is not viable AT ALL, at least considering the state of the earth as we know it is true. But, my paranoia is really another case, a viable one, and that makes it worse - I can't use logic and rationality to drive away the thought. Or maybe my rationality has been distorted from the paranoia? Either way, I'd like your input - worst case scenario, I'm asking people who don't exist and get answers that aren't there, so I'm really just asking my subconscious for answers. Which is fine. In the best case scenario, I'm just paranoid and you all can allay my fears.

Now, really, this is just conjecture and nothing can be said to prove or disprove it, making it nothing but hypothesis. It's just another idea. I don't truly believe that the hypothesis is true, I'm simply saying that considering the possibility itself is terrifying to the extreme.

Let's assume that our world, or our earth, isn't real - it's a figment of someone's imagination as a result of a drug induced hallucination. From my perspective, it's obviously me that's real. From yours, its you. Now, the "drug" they're using, is something we know nothing about as we know nothing of their natural laws, the properties of their world, and so on. So as we exist in a "drug" induced stupor, they study the effects of the drugs, of perceived reality, of a universe with different natural laws.

There's the motive. I just need your input, add what you feel should be added, and above all - don't be afraid to question everything, and point out stupidity that I might have left in somehow.

Thanks.
That's not how hallucinogenics work. They alter what is there, as opposed to introducing things that aren't. In addition, unlike narcotics, over time less and less of a dosage is required to achieve the same effect.
"As usual... it depends."

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Felix
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Felix » June 29th, 2018, 4:49 am

They alter what is there, as opposed to introducing things that aren't.
Not true, powerful hallucinogens such as DMT can indeed "introduce things that are not there," they can be like entering an alternate reality. Some say they actually can be a doorway to an alternate reality.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Burning ghost
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Burning ghost » June 29th, 2018, 6:35 am

LuckyR -

Incorrect, but also correct. The stimuli doesn’t have to be “external,” much like with dream states. They are bery much like waking dreams and most cetainly often interact with the actual world as it is at that time, to completely.
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » June 29th, 2018, 8:10 am

Felix wrote:
June 28th, 2018, 1:17 pm
It's actually like a lucid dream, you know you're dreaming, but then you have the memory of your non-drug altered state of awareness to compare it to, just as you have your dream state to compare to your waking state of consciousness. If you lacked that, then indeed you'd have no reason to doubt the veracity of the dream reality. But in a lucid dream, you have more control over your reality, not less.
It depends on the dosage and your particular reaction, but you may not have any memory, during the trip, of other states of consciousness or even your usual identity. You may also consider what you are experiencing as real, and you may continue to believe this afterwards. In part, or all of it. That it is a deeper reality or that you now see reality in a newer more correct way.

This is not how I experience most lucid dreams.

At low doses or when you have certain attitudes and paradigms - that manage to keep hold despite the experience - you may well experience the trip like a lucid dream, though I think this is rare for the whole experience. Even low doses will give you compelling experiences that you take as real - and of course may also be real, I believe - for shorter periods of time.

Self-talk may lessen this or not. Or you may not be able to self-talk during that time. Sometimes you notice something odd, accept it, then after a while realize - wait a minute, I don't usually believe in those things - and you pop into what you are making analagous to lucidity. But for a time you took it as real. (and sadly might have been right then, not later when you became 'lucid')

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LuckyR
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by LuckyR » June 29th, 2018, 10:58 am

Felix wrote:
June 29th, 2018, 4:49 am
They alter what is there, as opposed to introducing things that aren't.
Not true, powerful hallucinogens such as DMT can indeed "introduce things that are not there," they can be like entering an alternate reality. Some say they actually can be a doorway to an alternate reality.
I apologize for being incomplete. True hallucinogenics can show things that are not there right now, but they can't introduce subject matter that are not in memory, nor imagination. Of course everyone knows they can distort any of these subjects as a separate issue.
"As usual... it depends."

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mr533473
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Re: How can we believe our senses?

Post by mr533473 » July 1st, 2018, 9:12 am

"Let's assume that our world, or our earth, isn't real - it's a figment of someone's imagination as a result of a drug induced hallucination. From my perspective, it's obviously me that's real. From yours, its you. Now, the "drug" they're using, is something we know nothing about as we know nothing of their natural laws, the properties of their world, and so on. So as we exist in a "drug" induced stupor, they study the effects of the drugs, of perceived reality, of a universe with different natural laws."

In response to what you pose here, without getting into the effects of hallucinogens, I fail to see how anything would be different for you even if this were true. What I mean is that given that in the scenario you've laid out, you identify as real (like you do now), so do others (like we do now) and we're all unaware of the exact nature of our existence (like we all are now). The only thing you introduce here is an explanation for our existence which can neither be proved nor disproved. This would not call for you to cease "believing" in your senses as you still experience them and the impressions and ideas that result from them. The earth you speak of is the same as it has ever was, although it's somehow induced by an alien's hallucination.

Why up against your sensible reality you consider this highly improbable idea any kind of competition is beyond me. You might be able to give me a little more insight into how this idea is manifested so strongly and persists even though you say you want it off your mind. If somehow you knew your "hypothesis" to be true, what would change? what would you change?

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