What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by popeye1945 »

That's a wrap then.
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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That's a wrap then!
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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I had a little insight about this the other day.

My old dog is mostly deaf, but she senses sudden sounds like bangs and clunks. So I decide to take her out for a walk and close the back door. She is immediately on alert. According to dog science: the banging closed of the back door in early morning or late afternoon MAY mean a walk is coming. She awaits more "evidence". I go to the toilet and change into the kind of clothes that tolerate muddy paws. More clues. Door bang plus toilet plus changing clothes ALMOST CERTAINLY means a walk. But still she waits. I pick up my keys and phone and put them in a bag. BINGO!

The evidence is in! The collar goes on (dog formal wear) and off we go.

It struck me that she was performing rudimentary science - correlating cause and effect to predict upcoming events. It's an artificial correlation, of course and it all starts with a desire to know. In this case, a dog wants to consume food or information. The want rouses attention. Scanning, looking for opportunities. Events occur, and you want to know if these can be leveraged as "evidence" for future reference.

In this way we build up our bodies of knowledge, individually and collectively. The dog has her own bodies of knowledge. It's saddening to see people rejecting science, logic and reason - the learning passed down by our forebears. Why did they pass down knowledge? To help the next generation, so their progeny and their peers won't fall into the same traps as they did.
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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Hi Greta, Right to the point, experience is knowledge. I cannot help but feel that seeing as one must be motivated, and thus moved within before one can move without, that far from being human action it is indeed reaction. Whatever we experience becomes knowledge that inspires reaction. Just playing with the idea, seeing as subject and object can never be separated, object is the fuel for the mind, the very processes which kick in of thought alone spells reaction. So perception is experience is knowledge is stimulus for reaction. The concept of human action gives it an autonomy it doesn't justly deserve. When one is thinking of interpersonal relationships and individual ACTIONS, doesn't that leave the understanding floundering, as if, its uncaused, just out of the blue?
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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Yes, motivation plays an interesting role here. While all experience makes some kind of a mark on us, whether we notice it or not, the extent and the manner with which experience impacts us depends on our attention, which then harks back to motivations and capacity.

Ultimately, no matter how much information we gather from personal experience, it is exponentially smaller than our accumulated bodies of knowledge. Empowerment comes from leveraging this knowledge, as opposed to the recent trend towards rejecting it in favour of subjectivism.

While the trend itself is full of bone-headedness, there is a valid point to be made buried within - the recognition that, while objective bodies of knowledge are huge, they contain precious little about what is, in a sense, really going on, ie. the subjective experiences of billions of people (not to mention the experiences of other animals). This points to a limitation in science that I expect will be addressed better in time, with the observer problem being perhaps the jumping off point.
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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Greta wrote: November 2nd, 2020, 5:47 pm Yes, motivation plays an interesting role here. While all experience makes some kind of a mark on us, whether we notice it or not, the extent and the manner with which experience impacts us depends on our attention, which then harks back to motivations and capacity.''

It is interesting that in recent neurology studies the areas of the brain are activate/reacting before one becomes conscious of the intent to act/react.

''Ultimately, no matter how much information we gather from personal experience, it is exponentially smaller than our accumulated bodies of knowledge. Empowerment comes from leveraging this knowledge, as opposed to the recent trend towards rejecting it in favour of subjectivism.''

The past experiential history playing the larger role in the moment present, than circumstances of the moment, in providing the processing and evaluating of the perception of the moment?

While the trend itself is full of bone-headedness, there is a valid point to be made buried within - the recognition that, while objective bodies of knowledge are huge, they contain precious little about what is, in a sense, really going on, ie. the subjective experiences of billions of people (not to mention the experiences of other animals). This points to a limitation in science that I expect will be addressed better in time, with the observer problem being perhaps the jumping off point.
Yes, I don't think physics has clearly defined what constituted observation.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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popeye1945 wrote: November 2nd, 2020, 11:35 pm
Greta wrote: November 2nd, 2020, 5:47 pm Yes, motivation plays an interesting role here. While all experience makes some kind of a mark on us, whether we notice it or not, the extent and the manner with which experience impacts us depends on our attention, which then harks back to motivations and capacity.''

It is interesting that in recent neurology studies the areas of the brain are activate/reacting before one becomes conscious of the intent to act/react.

''Ultimately, no matter how much information we gather from personal experience, it is exponentially smaller than our accumulated bodies of knowledge. Empowerment comes from leveraging this knowledge, as opposed to the recent trend towards rejecting it in favour of subjectivism.''

The past experiential history playing the larger role in the moment present, than circumstances of the moment, in providing the processing and evaluating of the perception of the moment?

While the trend itself is full of bone-headedness, there is a valid point to be made buried within - the recognition that, while objective bodies of knowledge are huge, they contain precious little about what is, in a sense, really going on, ie. the subjective experiences of billions of people (not to mention the experiences of other animals). This points to a limitation in science that I expect will be addressed better in time, with the observer problem being perhaps the jumping off point.
Yes, I don't think physics has clearly defined what constituted observation.
It may even not be possible because we are "inside", which renders the "outside in" view speculative.

There is ultimately a huge amount of information processing going on in each individual that is not accessible - a huge slice of reality that cannot quite be apprehended by scientific means. Given the way things are going, it would not surprise if at some stage this century, millions of people will have compulsory brain implants that record, and report on, brain activities of interest (to the program sponsor).
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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Physics and Neurology though not able to uncover all of natures secrets is in the process of showing us a very strange world, in the relation to our very strange being. Some cultures have perhaps had a lead on us, Hindus and their Upanishads have been aware that consciousness is whole body consciousness, we are after all a multi-organism.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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popeye1945 wrote: November 3rd, 2020, 7:24 pm Physics and Neurology though not able to uncover all of natures secrets is in the process of showing us a very strange world, in the relation to our very strange being. Some cultures have perhaps had a lead on us, Hindus and their Upanishads have been aware that consciousness is whole body consciousness, we are after all a multi-organism.
Noticing this seems easier when we close our eyes. Without vision dominating my consciousness, my head feels like a black hole (so to speak), my torso feels like a bag of pulsating stuff, and my limbs feel like lines of tingling.

I also like to consider about the fact that we animals are the entire world to our microbes, each organ being a great "nation" of cells, with its own kind of of cell. If they could think, would they perceive us as being alive?
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by popeye1945 »

You have a delight mind. We are their environment, and they apparently maintain their environment better than we do ours. Speaking of perception/experience being knowledge, our environment is going to be presenting us all with some shocking new experiences, which will be the sum of our ignorance and arrogance. Perhaps we will only rise to the occasion when necessity dictates.
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Sy Borg
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

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I have a mind that delights in nature - theoretically, anyway. The old bod likes mod cons :)

Personally, I doubt that there is a "we". No matter how badly "we" screw up, there will be a minority of people who are too protected, supported and well-resourced to be in peril. With advanced autonomous technology, they don't need many human allies. We just saw an obese, 74 year-old man with a hugely stressful job shrug off a disease in three days that has killed otherwise young and healthy adults.

The first obvious thought is to rail against the unfairness of it all, especially since some of those at the top are more responsible than any for environmental damage. However, in the longer term, I wish their progeny well and hope they learn from their many mistakes, and continue to advance and grow ethically, to continue the story of Earth past the planet's future demise, to make all this pain and destruction worthwhile. I expect that this is what it feels like to be out-competed in natural selection.

Imagine being a methanogenic microbe just before the Great Oxygenation Event. Suddenly a photosynthesising upstart, cyanobacteria, appears, its communities polluting formerly clean zones with toxic oxygen. The blue-green algae took over the oceans, farting out oxygen, choking 90% of existing species to death. The remaining cells, however, found that oxygen could be used as fuel, and it was a strong enough fuel to allow cells to bond together, to form organisms ...
popeye1945
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by popeye1945 »

If your not a biologist you are a least a naturalist, as opposed to natural theologist. Yes I tend to agree, there is no we, put differently, collectively there is no mind. It's rather frightening really, for on an individual bases, the individual's fate is cast with the whole of humanity. We are I think a little off topic though, don't really know if there is much to say on the topic, after its established that perception/experience is the beginning of knowledge.
creation
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by creation »

popeye1945 wrote: November 4th, 2020, 2:45 am If your not a biologist you are a least a naturalist, as opposed to natural theologist. Yes I tend to agree, there is no we, put differently, collectively there is no mind. It's rather frightening really, for on an individual bases, the individual's fate is cast with the whole of humanity. We are I think a little off topic though, don't really know if there is much to say on the topic, after its established that perception/experience is the beginning of knowledge.
What about; What is the beginning of perception/experience?

And then, What is the beginning of 'that'? And so on, and so on.

Uncovering ALL of these answers was Truly REVEALING.
Steve3007
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by Steve3007 »

Ghazanfar Arif wrote:Wonder is the beginning of knowledge.

Skepticism is the beginning of knowledge.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
If the purpose of this topic was to place those three in order of relevance, perhaps the winner would metaphorically be the third one, in the sense that necessity is the mother of invention. We start to gain knowledge as a tool for survival. "Wonder" turns out to be a very useful survival tool, so perhaps the first one gets the silver medal.
creation
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Re: What is the beginning of Knowledge?

Post by creation »

Steve3007 wrote: November 4th, 2020, 6:25 am
Ghazanfar Arif wrote:Wonder is the beginning of knowledge.

Skepticism is the beginning of knowledge.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
If the purpose of this topic was to place those three in order of relevance, perhaps the winner would metaphorically be the third one, in the sense that necessity is the mother of invention. We start to gain knowledge as a tool for survival. "Wonder" turns out to be a very useful survival tool, so perhaps the first one gets the silver medal.
But necessity was NEVER the mother of invention.

Laziness was the mother of invention. Greed is now, in the days when this is written, the mother of invention.
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