Limits of Imagination

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

Consul wrote: July 8th, 2018, 2:21 pm I don't think intentions are reducible to desires, urges, or drives, because I can intend to do what I don't desire to do, and I can intentionally do something without feeling an urge or drive to do it.
I agree that intentions are not reducible to desires. In fact to the contrary, intentions are the basis of creating urges and desires, although you may want to call them meta-urges, meta-desires, as the intentions themselves are likely the results of more basic urges/desires. Thus, my desire for food may result in an intention to get to the apple up in the tree. This intention may generate the urge to go get a ladder.

*
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

mr533473 wrote: July 2nd, 2018, 4:55 am The question is if anyone feels their imagination capable of forming an idea that has not compounded, transposed, augmented or diminished materials afforded them by the senses and experience?
Simple answer is no, all ideas are the results of combinations of prior sense and experience, but that does not create a limit on forming any ideas. The key to human imagination is the ability to combine concepts arbitrarily. Given that, there is no idea that cannot be gotten to.

*
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by RJG »

Consul wrote:...because I can intend to do what I don't desire to do…
This is logically impossible (self-defeating).

Firstly, "intending" implies "desiring/wanting". Intending without the 'desire' or the 'want-to' defies the very meaning of intending. Without the desire to intend, then the action is merely "un-intentional" or "non-intentional". Again, intent implies want; without the want, there can be no intent.

Secondly, and to put it simply… It is impossible for us to want-ingly do (or to intend) what we don't 'want' to do. ...as we can't possibly do what we don't want to do without first WANTING to do so!!!

As Schopenhauer so eloquently stated:
"A man can do as he wants, but cannot want what he wants" -- Arthur Schopenhauer

RJG translation: "One cannot want what they want (or don't want!) without the 'prior' want to do so."

Consul wrote:...and I can intentionally do something without feeling an urge or drive to do it.
Not possible. Just ask yourself, -- what is the difference between "intentionally doing something" and just "doing something"? ...isn't it the desire/want (i.e. the 'urge') to do it?

JamesOfSeattle wrote:I agree that intentions are not reducible to desires. In fact to the contrary, intentions are the basis of creating urges and desires, although you may want to call them meta-urges, meta-desires, as the intentions themselves are likely the results of more basic urges/desires. Thus, my desire for food may result in an intention to get to the apple up in the tree. This intention may generate the urge to go get a ladder.
Firstly, it is impossible to intentionally create one's urges and desires. [refer to Schopenhauer quote]. And secondly, since, one cannot intend their intentions, without the 'prior' intention to do so, "intentions" are therefore just 'passive' experiences (i.e. felt "urges").

One cannot "intentionally" do anything. One can only experience the intention (urge) to do something. ...any other interpretation defeats itself.
User avatar
cavacava
Posts: 55
Joined: October 12th, 2018, 11:10 am

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by cavacava »

Language can describe countless things in countless ways, each way can be novel but the thing described is what it is. I think this limits creativity to the extent that does not make sense to discuss what can not be described by language.

I also think that it is possible to feel within thought, things that can't be adequately expressed in ordinary written language. Novelty that can be conveyed by the emotive power in or implied by works such as fine art, moral behavior, and perhaps psychology. Maybe why Plato wrote dialogues. Things which stun us, which are novel. The force or power of this kind of experience is typically lost in description.
User avatar
JamesOfSeattle
Premium Member
Posts: 509
Joined: October 16th, 2015, 11:20 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by JamesOfSeattle »

RJG wrote: November 19th, 2018, 2:56 pm
Consul wrote:...because I can intend to do what I don't desire to do…
This is logically impossible (self-defeating).
Actually it’s not logically impossible, it’s just incomplete. What’s being described is competing desires, one of which (at least) is driven by intention.
As Schopenhauer so eloquently stated:
"A man can do as he wants, but cannot want what he wants" -- Arthur Schopenhauer
There’s a good chance Schopenhauer is mistaken. People can change what they want, although they can’t (usually?) do it instantaneously.
JamesOfSeattle wrote:I agree that intentions are not reducible to desires. In fact to the contrary, intentions are the basis of creating urges and desires, although you may want to call them meta-urges, meta-desires, as the intentions themselves are likely the results of more basic urges/desires. Thus, my desire for food may result in an intention to get to the apple up in the tree. This intention may generate the urge to go get a ladder.
Firstly, it is impossible to intentionally create one's urges and desires. [refer to Schopenhauer quote]. And secondly, since, one cannot intend their intentions, without the 'prior' intention to do so, "intentions" are therefore just 'passive' experiences (i.e. felt "urges").

One cannot "intentionally" do anything. One can only experience the intention (urge) to do something. ...any other interpretation defeats itself.
I kinda think you’re brutalizing the word “intention” here. Obviously there is a difference between accidentally knocking a glass off a table and intentionally doing so.

Suppose I say “give me something to do”, and you say “move that chair one foot to the left”, and I move towards that chair with the intention to move it to the left, at what point did I develop the urge to move the chair to the left?

*
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by RJG »

JamesOfSeattle wrote:Actually it’s not logically impossible, it’s just incomplete. What’s being described is competing desires, one of which (at least) is driven by intention.
It is not the "competing" desire, but the 'preceding' desire, that makes it logically impossible for us to do other than what we desire/intend.

And since it is impossible to do other than what we desire (as we would first have to have that desire to do so), then we are left with no option to do anything other than what our desires dictate.

Schopenhauer wrote:"A man can do as he wants, but cannot want what he wants" -- Arthur Schopenhauer
JamesOfSeattle wrote:There’s a good chance Schopenhauer is mistaken.
Logically it is sound. Schopenhauer makes the same point (as I do above), that it is logically impossible to defy our desires, because there is always a 'preceding' desire/want to any action we may take.

JamesOfSeattle wrote:People can change what they want…
...only if they WANT to, i.e. only if there is a pre-existing (preceding) want to do so. This 'preceding' want makes it impossible for us to ever truly choose/select our own wants and actions resulting from these wants.

RJG wrote:Firstly, it is impossible to intentionally create one's urges and desires. [refer to Schopenhauer quote]. And secondly, since, one cannot intend their intentions, without the 'prior' intention to do so, "intentions" are therefore just 'passive' experiences (i.e. felt "urges").

One cannot "intentionally" do anything. One can only experience the intention (urge) to do something. ...any other interpretation [logically] defeats itself.
JamesOfSeattle wrote:I kinda think you’re brutalizing the word “intention” here. Obviously there is a difference between accidentally knocking a glass off a table and intentionally doing so.

Suppose I say “give me something to do”, and you say “move that chair one foot to the left”, and I move towards that chair with the intention to move it to the left, at what point did I develop the urge to move the chair to the left?
You never "developed" the urge. You only 'experienced' the urge.

Unfortunately, it is logically impossible for us to ever "develop" (cause, control, or choose) our own urges/wants/desires. Contrary to popular belief, these urges/desires/wants control us, ...we don't control them.
BigBango
Posts: 343
Joined: March 15th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Re: Limits of Imagination

Post by BigBango »

I think the problem here is a failure to recognize the full extent of our metaphysical nature. We have a genetic disposition instantiated in our being that predisposes us to prefer certain outcomes. However, we also have instantiated in our being an overlord that judges those feelings against its own measure of relevance. We are not simply victims of our base desires but we are captains of their relevance..
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021