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Proof Eternalism is Correct

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devans99
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Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 7:30 am

Eternalism is the belief that past present and future are real. The opposing view, Presentism posits that only now exists. I show that Presentism is wrong, thus Eternalism is true:

1. Presentism posits that only now exists
2. Therefore only now always existed
3. Therefore time did not have a start
4. But if you take away the start (Monday) does the rest of the week (Tuesday...) still exist?
5. No, so time has a start
6. Hence Presentism is false
7. Hence Eternalism must be true

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Halc
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Halc » October 21st, 2018, 8:44 am

3 does not follow. Maybe time has a start.
4 is invalid. Taking away the start doesn't take away Monday (any particular moment).

The same sort of proof has been rendered to show eternalism to be false. It doesn't work either.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 9:30 am

You are misreading the argument. Presentism implies that time has NO start. But thats impossible as illustrated by 4.

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Halc
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Halc » October 21st, 2018, 3:15 pm

devans99 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 9:30 am
You are misreading the argument. Presentism implies that time has NO start. But thats impossible as illustrated by 4.
3 says 'therefore' like it logically follows from point 1. It doesn't.
If it is an additional premise, word it like it isn't a conclusion.

Even eternalism is vague about if there is a start to time. Both interpretations allow infinite or finite time in both directions.

And I said 4 is invalid. Lack of a start doesn't remove Monday. There is still a Sunday before it. There has to be if it doesn't have a start.

Fooloso4
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Fooloso4 » October 21st, 2018, 3:29 pm

Devans99:
2. Therefore only now always existed
Misrepresenting an argument proves nothing. It is not that only now always existed but that always only now exists. You assert the very thing that is denied and then argue against your own assertion. To say “always existed” is to make a claim about the past, a claim about what was, a claim about what is not.
4. But if you take away the start (Monday) does the rest of the week (Tuesday...) still exist?
Again, you are asserting the very thing that is being denied. Now does not start on Monday or at any other time. Now is not Tuesday or any time other than now.

There are problems with presentism, but that does not prove eternalism, for there are problems with it too, and pointing to those problems does not prove that presentism or any other theory of time is correct At best what your “proofs” demonstrate is that we do not have an adequate concept of time.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 3:35 pm

Halc wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 3:15 pm
devans99 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 9:30 am
You are misreading the argument. Presentism implies that time has NO start. But thats impossible as illustrated by 4.
3 says 'therefore' like it logically follows from point 1. It doesn't.
If it is an additional premise, word it like it isn't a conclusion.

Even eternalism is vague about if there is a start to time. Both interpretations allow infinite or finite time in both directions.

And I said 4 is invalid. Lack of a start doesn't remove Monday. There is still a Sunday before it. There has to be if it doesn't have a start.
But if there is no start, there is no middle or end. Take away Monday and the rest of the week does not exits.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 3:37 pm

Fooloso4 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 3:29 pm
Misrepresenting an argument proves nothing. It is not that only now always existed but that always only now exists..
So you are saying:
- Presentist believe that only now exists
- But Presentist believe that in the past more than now exists
???

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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Fooloso4 » October 21st, 2018, 3:45 pm

devans99:

So you are saying:
- Presentist believe that only now exists
- But Presentist believe that in the past more than now exists
???
I do not know how you got the second statement from anything I said. According to Presentism the past does not exist and so no 'now exists' in the past.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 3:52 pm

Right so according to Presentism, time has a start, so the rest of my proof follows...

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 3:58 pm

SORRY I MEANT:

Right so according to Presentism, time has a NO start, so the rest of my proof follows...

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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Fooloso4 » October 21st, 2018, 4:22 pm

Devans99:
Right so according to Presentism, time has a start, so the rest of my proof follows…
I am not interested in playing this game. It does not follow from anything I have said or anything that presentism claims that ‘now’ has a start. You continue to misrepresent what is actually said in order to make it fit your failed “proof”.

You have ignored the fact that even if presentism is false that does not mean that eternalism is true.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 4:27 pm

Sorry I mean according to Presentism, time has a NO start.

Presentism is the believe that only now exists; hence if Presentism is false, more than now exists; past and present exist, so Eternalism is true.

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ThomasHobbes
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by ThomasHobbes » October 21st, 2018, 4:28 pm

devans99 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:30 am
Eternalism is the belief that past present and future are real. The opposing view, Presentism posits that only now exists. I show that Presentism is wrong, thus Eternalism is true:

1. Presentism posits that only now exists
2. Therefore only now always existed
3. Therefore time did not have a start
4. But if you take away the start (Monday) does the rest of the week (Tuesday...) still exist?
5. No, so time has a start
6. Hence Presentism is false
7. Hence Eternalism must be true
I think you have a lot more work to do.
Points 2 and 3 ASSUME eternalism, which you fallaciously use to deny presentism.
Eternalism also implies endlessness. Since you can not (in fact never) prove that reality shall never end, you cannot assert the truth of eternalism.

devans99
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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by devans99 » October 21st, 2018, 4:47 pm

ThomasHobbes wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:28 pm
devans99 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:30 am
Eternalism is the belief that past present and future are real. The opposing view, Presentism posits that only now exists. I show that Presentism is wrong, thus Eternalism is true:

1. Presentism posits that only now exists
2. Therefore only now always existed
3. Therefore time did not have a start
4. But if you take away the start (Monday) does the rest of the week (Tuesday...) still exist?
5. No, so time has a start
6. Hence Presentism is false
7. Hence Eternalism must be true
I think you have a lot more work to do.
Points 2 and 3 ASSUME eternalism, which you fallaciously use to deny presentism.
Eternalism also implies endlessness. Since you can not (in fact never) prove that reality shall never end, you cannot assert the truth of eternalism.
Point 2 follows from point 1 only; Presentism posits that only now exists; And therefore only now has always existed. I am not assuming anything.

Point 3 follows from point 2; if now has always existed, there can be no start to time

Eternalism does always not imply endlessness; the word has two meanings: eternal in time implies endlessness/infinity and is impossible. The way I mean it is eternal outside time which is a finite state.

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Re: Proof Eternalism is Correct

Post by Fooloso4 » October 21st, 2018, 6:49 pm

Devans99:
SORRY I MEANT:

Right so according to Presentism, time has a NO start, so the rest of my proof follows…
It does not follow from the denial that there is a start of now that it is not the case that always only now exists.
Presentism is the believe that only now exists; hence if Presentism is false, more than now exists; past and present exist, so Eternalism is true.
But you have not shown that presentism is false. Presentism and eternalism are not the only options. In addition, you don't say anything about the future and eternalism. One can hold that the past existed but no longer does, the present exists but did not exist in the past and will not exist in the future, and that the future does not exist.

Once again, all of these concepts of time, including eternalism, present problems. To pretend or worse to delude yourself that you have proven that eternalism is correct is self-deception.

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