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Circular Time

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
devans99
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Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm

axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe

So time must be circular by these axioms.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm

devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe

So time must be circular by these axioms.
You need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.

To wit:

a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)

a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid

query: What caused the Universe?

Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.

As for time, it does not exist.

Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.

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Scott
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Scott » December 23rd, 2018, 10:30 am

devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe
That's a non-sequitur. The conclusion doesn't inherently follow from only the two premises listed.

Is the above supposed to be deductive logic or inductive logic? What rule specifically is being used to get to the conclusion from the two axioms?
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devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 23rd, 2018, 12:52 pm

h_k_s wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm
devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe

So time must be circular by these axioms.
You need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.

To wit:

a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)

a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid

query: What caused the Universe?

Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.

As for time, it does not exist.

Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
But an 'uncaused cause' violates axiom 2 (cause and effect).

Time does exist. Staring with the Einstein’s equation:

E = mc² ∕ √ (1 - v² ∕ c²)
Rearranging to:
m = E × √ (1 - v² ∕ c²) / c²

So time (in the v term) determines mass. So something in the universe must be aware of time else it could not assign a mass. So time must be real.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 23rd, 2018, 12:55 pm

Scott wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 10:30 am
devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe
That's a non-sequitur. The conclusion doesn't inherently follow from only the two premises listed.

Is the above supposed to be deductive logic or inductive logic? What rule specifically is being used to get to the conclusion from the two axioms?
It's deductive. Universe is everything. Cause and effect apply. Therefore cause and effect apply to the universe. There is nothing to cause the universe apart from the universe. So the universe caused the universe. Time is circular. Not sure if I believe it but I think its an interesting argument.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 23rd, 2018, 10:05 pm

devans99 wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 12:52 pm
h_k_s wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm


You need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.

To wit:

a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)

a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid

query: What caused the Universe?

Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.

As for time, it does not exist.

Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
But an 'uncaused cause' violates axiom 2 (cause and effect).

Time does exist. Staring with the Einstein’s equation:

E = mc² ∕ √ (1 - v² ∕ c²)
Rearranging to:
m = E × √ (1 - v² ∕ c²) / c²

So time (in the v term) determines mass. So something in the universe must be aware of time else it could not assign a mass. So time must be real.
Time does not exist. The Big E (Einstein) was simply using time as a differential, which is a fundamental of math.

And math also does NOT exist -- being a creation of the human mind only.

You have stumbled upon the dilemma and paradox of the First Cause.

Because no cause can cause itself, in semantic terms, there must therefore be a First Cause Who is uncaused.

This you will need to comprehend before you understand indirect proofs in logic and Philosophy.

Sounds like logic is NOT your forte.

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Papus79
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Papus79 » December 23rd, 2018, 11:52 pm

Sir Roger Penrose has an interesting idea on this - mainly that the conjoined issue of space-time means that if the universe goes far enough into heat death there ends up being a problem with what happens to the math, enough that a sort of 'confusion' as he put it would perhaps bring everything back together to re-trigger the big bang.

Atla
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Atla » December 24th, 2018, 1:31 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm
query: What caused the Universe?

Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.

As for time, it does not exist.

Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
Why not get around it? Aquinas may have missed an obvious possibility.

Our universe itself doesn't need a cause, it just is. Within our universe, time could very well be circular. For example: either a part, or the entirety of our universe ends in a Big Crunch and starts with a Big Bang, which are the same event. (For example the Big Crunch may be a collision of a colossal matter and a colossal anti-matter black hole, from which the Big Bang follows.)

There may be only one cycle, a loop, the distant past and the distant future are the same moment in time. It's perfectly logical.

Time may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more than just something in our minds. Time certainly seems to be a "feature" of the observable universe. Just as mathematics is unreasonably effective and produces certain values, which may somehow reflect the structure of our universe.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 24th, 2018, 10:44 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 10:05 pm
Time does not exist.
If time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.

Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.

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Mark1955
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Mark1955 » December 24th, 2018, 11:04 am

devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe

So time must be circular by these axioms.
I'd suggest: -
Axiom 1 is valid by definition but actually meaningless, you might as well say one = one.
Axiom 2 is not proven in all cases and never will be.
Thus any conclusion drawn is suspect/meaningless.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 24th, 2018, 11:10 am

Mark1955 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:04 am
devans99 wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 12:47 pm
axiom 1: the universe is everything
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe

So time must be circular by these axioms.
I'd suggest: -
Axiom 1 is valid by definition but actually meaningless, you might as well say one = one.
Axiom 2 is not proven in all cases and never will be.
Thus any conclusion drawn is suspect/meaningless.
By axiom 1, I was trying to express the fact that there is nothing outside the universe to cause the universe (if you define the universe as everything).

Axiom 2 is not proven I agree, but no axioms are provable; that's why they are axioms. I think its a pretty good axiom: ties in with everyday experience. I would even argue it ties in with Quantum Mechanics.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 24th, 2018, 11:11 am

devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 10:44 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 23rd, 2018, 10:05 pm
Time does not exist.
If time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.

Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.
Time does not exist. We all live in the present.

It has nothing to do with time going backwards.

Since time does not exist it cannot go backwards.

False argument.

Q.E.D.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 24th, 2018, 11:13 am

Atla wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 1:31 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm
query: What caused the Universe?

Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.

As for time, it does not exist.

Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
Why not get around it? Aquinas may have missed an obvious possibility.

Our universe itself doesn't need a cause, it just is. Within our universe, time could very well be circular. For example: either a part, or the entirety of our universe ends in a Big Crunch and starts with a Big Bang, which are the same event. (For example the Big Crunch may be a collision of a colossal matter and a colossal anti-matter black hole, from which the Big Bang follows.)

There may be only one cycle, a loop, the distant past and the distant future are the same moment in time. It's perfectly logical.

Time may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more than just something in our minds. Time certainly seems to be a "feature" of the observable universe. Just as mathematics is unreasonably effective and produces certain values, which may somehow reflect the structure of our universe.
Your opinions are very common among the common people.

You are no philosopher however.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 24th, 2018, 11:18 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:11 am
devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 10:44 am


If time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.

Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.
Time does not exist. We all live in the present.

It has nothing to do with time going backwards.

Since time does not exist it cannot go backwards.

False argument.

Q.E.D.
But the past did exist. And that is all the above argument relies on. I did not say anything about time going backwards. All I am talking about is the fact that cause and effect exists and it applies to past events.

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Re: Circular Time

Post by Atla » December 24th, 2018, 11:23 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:13 am
Your opinions are very common among the common people.

You are no philosopher however.
I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 people have never considered circular time. What is common is the idea of a first cause.

You also seem to be denying spacetime. Is that what philosophers do?

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