Circular Time
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Circular Time
axiom 2: the law of cause and effect applies
conclusion 1: the universe caused the universe
So time must be circular by these axioms.
- h_k_s
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Re: Circular Time
You need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.
To wit:
a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)
a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid
query: What caused the Universe?
Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.
As for time, it does not exist.
Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
- Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- The admin formerly known as Scott
- Posts: 5765
- Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
- Contact:
Re: Circular Time
That's a non-sequitur. The conclusion doesn't inherently follow from only the two premises listed.
Is the above supposed to be deductive logic or inductive logic? What rule specifically is being used to get to the conclusion from the two axioms?
"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."
I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Re: Circular Time
But an 'uncaused cause' violates axiom 2 (cause and effect).h_k_s wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pmYou need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.
To wit:
a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)
a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid
query: What caused the Universe?
Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.
As for time, it does not exist.
Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
Time does exist. Staring with the Einstein’s equation:
E = mc² ∕ √ (1 - v² ∕ c²)
Rearranging to:
m = E × √ (1 - v² ∕ c²) / c²
So time (in the v term) determines mass. So something in the universe must be aware of time else it could not assign a mass. So time must be real.
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Re: Circular Time
It's deductive. Universe is everything. Cause and effect apply. Therefore cause and effect apply to the universe. There is nothing to cause the universe apart from the universe. So the universe caused the universe. Time is circular. Not sure if I believe it but I think its an interesting argument.
- h_k_s
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Re: Circular Time
Time does not exist. The Big E (Einstein) was simply using time as a differential, which is a fundamental of math.devans99 wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2018, 12:52 pmBut an 'uncaused cause' violates axiom 2 (cause and effect).h_k_s wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2018, 7:36 pm
You need to get even more basic in your analysis with better language.
To wit:
a-priori: the Universe exists (we normally capitalize names)
a-priori: cause and effect as well as effect and cause are valid
query: What caused the Universe?
Aquinas' answer is that the First Cause caused the Universe. You are not going to get around this.
As for time, it does not exist.
Time is like mathematics -- it exists only in humans' minds.
Time does exist. Staring with the Einstein’s equation:
E = mc² ∕ √ (1 - v² ∕ c²)
Rearranging to:
m = E × √ (1 - v² ∕ c²) / c²
So time (in the v term) determines mass. So something in the universe must be aware of time else it could not assign a mass. So time must be real.
And math also does NOT exist -- being a creation of the human mind only.
You have stumbled upon the dilemma and paradox of the First Cause.
Because no cause can cause itself, in semantic terms, there must therefore be a First Cause Who is uncaused.
This you will need to comprehend before you understand indirect proofs in logic and Philosophy.
Sounds like logic is NOT your forte.
- Papus79
- Posts: 1798
- Joined: February 19th, 2017, 6:59 pm
Re: Circular Time
-
- Posts: 2540
- Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm
Re: Circular Time
Why not get around it? Aquinas may have missed an obvious possibility.
Our universe itself doesn't need a cause, it just is. Within our universe, time could very well be circular. For example: either a part, or the entirety of our universe ends in a Big Crunch and starts with a Big Bang, which are the same event. (For example the Big Crunch may be a collision of a colossal matter and a colossal anti-matter black hole, from which the Big Bang follows.)
There may be only one cycle, a loop, the distant past and the distant future are the same moment in time. It's perfectly logical.
Time may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more than just something in our minds. Time certainly seems to be a "feature" of the observable universe. Just as mathematics is unreasonably effective and produces certain values, which may somehow reflect the structure of our universe.
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Re: Circular Time
If time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.
Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.
- Mark1955
- Posts: 739
- Joined: July 21st, 2015, 4:02 am
- Favorite Philosopher: David Hume
- Location: Nottingham, England.
Re: Circular Time
I'd suggest: -
Axiom 1 is valid by definition but actually meaningless, you might as well say one = one.
Axiom 2 is not proven in all cases and never will be.
Thus any conclusion drawn is suspect/meaningless.
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Re: Circular Time
By axiom 1, I was trying to express the fact that there is nothing outside the universe to cause the universe (if you define the universe as everything).
Axiom 2 is not proven I agree, but no axioms are provable; that's why they are axioms. I think its a pretty good axiom: ties in with everyday experience. I would even argue it ties in with Quantum Mechanics.
- h_k_s
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Re: Circular Time
Time does not exist. We all live in the present.devans99 wrote: ↑December 24th, 2018, 10:44 amIf time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.
Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.
It has nothing to do with time going backwards.
Since time does not exist it cannot go backwards.
False argument.
Q.E.D.
- h_k_s
- Posts: 1243
- Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
- Location: Rocky Mountains
Re: Circular Time
Your opinions are very common among the common people.Atla wrote: ↑December 24th, 2018, 1:31 amWhy not get around it? Aquinas may have missed an obvious possibility.
Our universe itself doesn't need a cause, it just is. Within our universe, time could very well be circular. For example: either a part, or the entirety of our universe ends in a Big Crunch and starts with a Big Bang, which are the same event. (For example the Big Crunch may be a collision of a colossal matter and a colossal anti-matter black hole, from which the Big Bang follows.)
There may be only one cycle, a loop, the distant past and the distant future are the same moment in time. It's perfectly logical.
Time may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more than just something in our minds. Time certainly seems to be a "feature" of the observable universe. Just as mathematics is unreasonably effective and produces certain values, which may somehow reflect the structure of our universe.
You are no philosopher however.
-
- Posts: 341
- Joined: June 17th, 2018, 8:24 pm
Re: Circular Time
But the past did exist. And that is all the above argument relies on. I did not say anything about time going backwards. All I am talking about is the fact that cause and effect exists and it applies to past events.h_k_s wrote: ↑December 24th, 2018, 11:11 amTime does not exist. We all live in the present.devans99 wrote: ↑December 24th, 2018, 10:44 am
If time does not exist; then things must go back forever. But an infinite regress is impossible: if there is no 'first event' and cause and effect apply then there is nothing to cause the 2nd event, the 3rd event etc... all events in history are uncaused. So things can't go back forever. So time must exist and it must be circular or linear. Linear is impossible (what caused the first event?), hence circular time.
Circular time may seem far fetched, but the alternatives are IMO even more far fetched/impossible.
It has nothing to do with time going backwards.
Since time does not exist it cannot go backwards.
False argument.
Q.E.D.
-
- Posts: 2540
- Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm
Re: Circular Time
I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 people have never considered circular time. What is common is the idea of a first cause.
You also seem to be denying spacetime. Is that what philosophers do?
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023