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Circular Time

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 24th, 2018, 11:27 am

devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:18 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:11 am


Time does not exist. We all live in the present.

It has nothing to do with time going backwards.

Since time does not exist it cannot go backwards.

False argument.

Q.E.D.
But the past did exist. And that is all the above argument relies on. I did not say anything about time going backwards. All I am talking about is the fact that cause and effect exists and it applies to past events.
Time does not exist.

The past does not exist.

We live in the present.

Only the present exists.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 24th, 2018, 11:32 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:27 am
devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:18 am


But the past did exist. And that is all the above argument relies on. I did not say anything about time going backwards. All I am talking about is the fact that cause and effect exists and it applies to past events.
Time does not exist.

The past does not exist.

We live in the present.

Only the present exists.
The past did exist

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Mark1955
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Mark1955 » December 25th, 2018, 4:11 am

devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:10 am
Mark1955 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:04 am

I'd suggest: -
Axiom 1 is valid by definition but actually meaningless, you might as well say one = one.
Axiom 2 is not proven in all cases and never will be.
Thus any conclusion drawn is suspect/meaningless.
By axiom 1, I was trying to express the fact that there is nothing outside the universe to cause the universe (if you define the universe as everything).

Axiom 2 is not proven I agree, but no axioms are provable; that's why they are axioms. I think it's a pretty good axiom: ties in with everyday experience. I would even argue it ties in with Quantum Mechanics.
Time fulfills all the standard scientific requirements of existing. It can be measured and quantified and it can be used in equations to make predictions which turn out to be accurate. Those equations assume it to be linear.

So since your conclusion is so patently wrong wouldn't it be more sense to say that it proves that your axioms are wrong.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 25th, 2018, 10:56 am

Atla wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:23 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:13 am
Your opinions are very common among the common people.

You are no philosopher however.
I'm pretty sure 9 out of 10 people have never considered circular time. What is common is the idea of a first cause.

You also seem to be denying spacetime. Is that what philosophers do?
The Big E's (Einstein) "space-time" is a farce, correct. Especially since time does not exist.

And your 9 out of 10 argument is a populorum fallacy. Do you know what that is?

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 25th, 2018, 10:57 am

devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:32 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:27 am


Time does not exist.

The past does not exist.

We live in the present.

Only the present exists.
The past did exist
There is no such thing as the past. It is only a function of the human mind. Same as math.

Atla
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Atla » December 25th, 2018, 11:27 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:56 am
The Big E's (Einstein) "space-time" is a farce, correct. Especially since time does not exist.
Not a farce, time "exists" although it may not be fundamental. Maybe you were just unable to resolve the apparent contradiction between spacetime and the eternal now, so you threw spacetime out.
And your 9 out of 10 argument is a populorum fallacy. Do you know what that is?
It was a reply to what you wrote, not an argument. Nor a populum fallacy, it was actually saying 1 or less out of 10. That's hardly popular.
What do you keep replying to, do you even read the comments?

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 25th, 2018, 11:48 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:57 am
There is no such thing as the past. It is only a function of the human mind. Same as math.
I’ll show time has a start so it must be real (using the same axiom of cause and effect as I used for my first argument):

1. Assume time goes back forever
2. So some events must have taken place infinity long ago *
3. And other events must have taken place before these events (before time = -∞)
4. But thats impossible by the definition of infinity (nothing before time = -∞)
5. Contradiction; time must have a start

*If all events occurred finitely long ago, then before each event there must be an actual infinity of other events. IE some events must have taken place infinity long ago

Note that a circle has a start/end point, it's just the choice of where it is arbitrary.

Going back to my first argument:

- Axiom 1. The universe is everything
- Axiom 2. Cause and effect apply
- Conclusion 1. The universe was caused by the universe

Note that all the following alternative solutions are ruled out by axiom 2:

- An 'uncaused cause' caused the universe
- An infinite regress of time/events caused the universe
- Something from nothing caused the universe

So circular time you may not like but using these axioms, it is the only possibility?

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LuckyR
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Re: Circular Time

Post by LuckyR » December 26th, 2018, 4:43 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:57 am
devans99 wrote:
December 24th, 2018, 11:32 am


The past did exist
There is no such thing as the past. It is only a function of the human mind. Same as math.
This is true, thus why time travel can only be to the future, ie there is no past to travel to.
"As usual... it depends."

Atla
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Atla » December 26th, 2018, 6:44 pm

If there is no past, then there is equally no future either. Space and time are functions of the mind AND also features of the observable universe.

Why are you people just throwing out spacetime, even though its existence was confirmed a million times? Past present and future are inseparably one, it makes no sense to single out one or two of them and discard the rest. Plus circular time is inherently compatible with the eternal now so "there is no time" doesn't cut it.

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h_k_s
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Re: Circular Time

Post by h_k_s » December 26th, 2018, 9:37 pm

LuckyR wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 4:43 am
h_k_s wrote:
December 25th, 2018, 10:57 am


There is no such thing as the past. It is only a function of the human mind. Same as math.
This is true, thus why time travel can only be to the future, ie there is no past to travel to.
Time travel.

Yet another oxymoron.

Belindi
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Belindi » December 27th, 2018, 10:12 am

The past is an idea. Ideas exist as memories which are brain-mind events. The present is also an idea and it's an idea which unlike the idea of the past is indefinable and its meaning is contextual only.

The future is a very interesting idea for the idea of the future in certain contexts is the same as the idea of possibility. However in other contexts the idea of the future is synonymous with dread, or with hope , or with faith.

Tamminen
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Tamminen » December 27th, 2018, 10:45 am

Belindi wrote:
December 27th, 2018, 10:12 am
The past is an idea. Ideas exist as memories which are brain-mind events.
Memories are memories of past experiences, so the being of the past is independent of the memories of it.

Belindi
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Re: Circular Time

Post by Belindi » December 27th, 2018, 11:24 am

Tamminen wrote:
December 27th, 2018, 10:45 am
Belindi wrote:
December 27th, 2018, 10:12 am
The past is an idea. Ideas exist as memories which are brain-mind events.
Memories are memories of past experiences, so the being of the past is independent of the memories of it.
Past events are eternally real because past events are necessary events ; if and only if you are a determinist.

devans99
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Re: Circular Time

Post by devans99 » December 27th, 2018, 11:29 am

Actually I think there is a clean way to demonstrate an infinite regress of time is impossible:

1. The number of events in an infinite regress is > any number
2. Thats a contradiction (can’t be both a number and > any number)
3. Making up magic numbers is not allowed (can break any theory if magic is admissible)

So that means time had a start. IE it must be real like Einstein said...

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LuckyR
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Re: Circular Time

Post by LuckyR » December 28th, 2018, 3:17 am

h_k_s wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 9:37 pm
LuckyR wrote:
December 26th, 2018, 4:43 am


This is true, thus why time travel can only be to the future, ie there is no past to travel to.
Time travel.

Yet another oxymoron.
Huh? Time travel happens not infrequently, if not routinely.
"As usual... it depends."

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