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Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Eduk
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk » February 12th, 2019, 5:21 am

I said does matter.
Unknown means unknown.

Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 12th, 2019, 5:30 am

Eduk wrote:
February 12th, 2019, 4:34 am
Sure questions are good. But the answer to the question does matter.
The answer you accept is best to be the one that is the most probable. If probability cannot be the criterion for your choice then you best select the answer that will do the least harm or the most good.

Only mathematics and formal logic yield absolutely right answers. Answers to metaphysical questions such as causality? are beyond the limit of what we can know from the perspective of probability and concern least harm most good.

Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 5:37 am

The two words "harm" and "good" are very personal and can be viewed from all sorts of viewpoints. In wartime killing a million people is both good and bad depending on which side you're on and harhm is so widely variable that it it can easily cause murder.

Eduk
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk » February 12th, 2019, 5:43 am

@BelindiI was just pointing out that good questions are good and bad questions are bad.
Unknown means unknown.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 12th, 2019, 5:48 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 12th, 2019, 5:37 am
The two words "harm" and "good" are very personal and can be viewed from all sorts of viewpoints. In wartime killing a million people is both good and bad depending on which side you're on and harhm is so widely variable that it it can easily cause murder.
That's why human angst. That's also why if you have to humbly worship a version of God it should be the version of God in process of coming to be. This would be an entirely different God from the metaphysical God absolute.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 6:15 am

Since "God" is a creature out of human conjecture and imagination and is credited with what is claimed as perfection it, unlike us lesser creatures, is beyond human capacity to comprehend. Good and bad does not exist in systems without goals and outside the spectrum of living creatures, simply, has no existence.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 12th, 2019, 7:43 am

"God is a creature" is an oxymoron if the name refers to the theists' God. Certainly this God is beyond human conjecture and imagination and I can't comprehend it. Creatures can possibly be comprehended and imagined even if they are fictitious creatures such as fairies or unicorns.

'Good ' and 'bad' can't be the names for entities or gods but a great many people think that 'God' is synonymous with absolute good. I'd like to think so too but the problem of evil remains.

There is a human trait which I do consider deserves worthship. That human trait is the search for the good the true and the beautiful. The search plus the ever-elusive object of the search may also be called 'God' .

Please be patient with this apparent diversion from the topic. But it's connected to the topic. One main advantage we humans possess in our holy search is inductive reason, and inductive reason is founded upon causation. Causation gives rise to determinism. Determinism allied with reason, not so-called 'Free Will' , is what gives maximum freedom of choice to individuals who seek the best relative truths and the best ethics available.

Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 8:16 am

Aside from the personal understanding that the concept of worship has no meaning for me, the theocratic concepts of good and evil are related to what satisfied a god or angers it and that does not, in any way, fit into the way I understand existence. The world today is such a totally confused mess and humanity as a whole so strangely addicted to destroy itself and most of other life on the planet that I have no concept as what might make sense of it all. As someone who has been involved with art and fascinated with science my long life is one of both curiosity and despair over what most people seem to get involved with. Much of that is of very little interest to me and it all seems rather hopeless and rather silly.

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JosephM
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM » February 12th, 2019, 9:19 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 12th, 2019, 6:15 am
Since "God" is a creature out of human conjecture and imagination and is credited with what is claimed as perfection it, unlike us lesser creatures, is beyond human capacity to comprehend. Good and bad does not exist in systems without goals and outside the spectrum of living creatures, simply, has no existence.
If God is a human creation, wouldn't that put him smack in the middle of those things we comprehend most thoroughly?
Also , perfection is most easy to understand because we retain ideas in an abstract manner .
EX; One is one , and it is no other amount. The generalized mouse is , whatever it is , and its certainly not a cat.

Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 2:44 pm

The idea that something created by humans is fully understood by humans seems based on the concept that all humans fully understand everything created by humans and evidently that is not true. There is much in mathematics that puzzles even skilled mathematicians and I have only the vaguest idea of all the implications of Einstein's revisions of Newtonian physics and current physics in its many mysterious aspects puzzles many in the field as pointed out by Feynman. Theologians who speak confidently of the intent of a mind of whatever god they claim to speak for most likely probably could not even psychoanalyze an octopus, not to speak of a god.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 12th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
Aside from the personal understanding that the concept of worship has no meaning for me, the theocratic concepts of good and evil are related to what satisfied a god or angers it and that does not, in any way, fit into the way I understand existence.
I wrote "worthship" which is what the word 'worship' originally meant.I guess that most people feel something to be particularly worthy .

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Halc
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Halc » February 12th, 2019, 10:17 pm

JosephM wrote:
February 11th, 2019, 11:22 am
Halc wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 1:41 am
I hold nothing in higher or lesser respect because of its ability (or lack of it) to initiate cause, and I suspect neither would any god. But of course, that's just me.
While I initiate cause all the time, I do not do so by act of will and I feel no responsibility for it.
I do not wish to skew your statement but ,..
Did you just say -paraphrased- , that you don't take responsibility for the things you do ?
I don't take responsibility for the uncaused quantum events that take place within the bounds of material that I consider to be 'me'.
That is quite different from not taking responsibility for my choices. My choices are not based directly on such causes.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 13th, 2019, 1:10 am

Our survival depends directly on the priority of suspicions as to what might or might not be effective or dangerous which cannot be divorced from cause and effect. One cannot be random or inattentive and expect to live long or be successful in our endeavors.

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Halc
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Halc » February 13th, 2019, 10:34 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 13th, 2019, 1:10 am
Our survival depends directly on the priority of suspicions as to what might or might not be effective or dangerous which cannot be divorced from cause and effect. One cannot be random or inattentive and expect to live long or be successful in our endeavors.
That is what I was trying to convey, yes. If one defines free will as the ability to initiate cause, then the exercise of that free will in meaningful situations would be to be unfit for survival. Free will needs a different definition than that one.
For starters, there is implied conflict: Of what am I positing to be free? If there is no conflict, then there is nothing from which I need to be freed. So perhaps freedom from deterministic physics, implying that those deterministic physics is not exactly what you are and what makes choice possible. A compatibilist might then assert that no conflict exists, and thus nothing from which the will need consider itself to be free.

I mean there is definitely conflict. I will to be on the other side of these jail bars, but deterministic physics prevents me from actualizing my will, and thus I am not responsible for failing to save the life of the choking guard on the other side of those bars.

Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 13th, 2019, 11:08 am

In general, it might be worthwhile to differentiate what makes will or decision. If one will s for somethiong to happen based on the possibility of that decision to be effectual, one must analyze that action on the basis of what determines the success of that decision. Anybody is free to decide whatever they want but the success of thast decision to be effectual cannot be based on anything but deterministic principles.

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