Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

[Belindi]

JosephM wrote:

Maybe nobody notices that we have an entire planet covered with organisms that act as Carbon dioxide sinks , called plants , and that Carbon dioxide is not at levels which preclude yet more uptake.

Perhaps you don't understand how statistics can show not only change but also rate of change and how rate of change is an issue for climates when correlation with human activity is one of the variables.

Understand that plants will not be fertilised by insects if insect species continue to decline.

[Jan Sand]

If you are keeping up with current events you must be aware that the latest analyses indicate that much of the greenery that sucked up the CO2 is radically reversing its capacity to absorb all that carbon. Beyond that the massive greenery in the south American forests is being vastly destroyed by government policies of burning off greenery to expand agriculture that consumes the fertility and then is rather useless. The CO2 excesses in the atmosphere will take many centuries to return to a favorable condition during which the loss of ice and snow reflectiveness of the Sujn's heat will permit the oceans to heat up even more rapiodly and the loss of permafrost will only wikdly increase the methne output. That and the hotter oceans are freeing further methane submerged in the former cold seas so all sorts of feedback loops are in operation to fry the planet. What is known now about the velocity of heating is continually being revised to indicate past evaluations are far underestimated as far as global heating and each new evaluation makes the situation look worse. Current estimates are that fifteen or twenty years will be the crossover point when the main horrors hit and there is little indication that any human reversal of the trends is not beyond what science and technology can manage. Do not presume this is some kind of perverse victory for me. But I cannot deny what is obvious.

[JosephM]

Josephm wrote:

Ok Ok We are all going to die ,I guess you'd better start wrapping things up then , get that will written out ,and spend what you got left before those ice sheets slide down.

Jan ensorses reason ; he's not the cause of your intransigence towards what constitutes proper evidence.

Yeah well, he said he wasn't qualified to judge any data.
So He isn't endorsing reason in this case, just impugn libertarians .
And I get the impression he isn't actually worried about any of the doom predicted , you know, the increased bad everything, wildfires, storms ,sea level , mass hysteria, wars , starvation, pestilence, bad air , demise of the developed world ,and rise of the third .

[Jan Sand]

The vanishing of the insects alone which deprives birds, bats, lizards, etc. loses the next level of life and they (and we) will vanish as well in a matter of a few decades. The third world is not immune. I have no idea what might happen to the advanced robots. Perhaps that's the next step in evolution.

[JosephM]

JosephM wrote:

Maybe nobody notices that we have an entire planet covered with organisms that act as Carbon dioxide sinks , called plants , and that Carbon dioxide is not at levels which preclude yet more uptake.

Perhaps you don't understand how statistics can show not only change but also rate of change and how rate of change is an issue for climates when correlation with human activity is one of the variables.

Understand that plants will not be fertilised by insects if insect species continue to decline.

I am aware of these things , but I am not understanding what about them, is salient, In your opinion.

[Belindi]

JosephM wrote:



Perhaps you don't understand how statistics can show not only change but also rate of change and how rate of change is an issue for climates when correlation with human activity is one of the variables.

Understand that plants will not be fertilised by insects if insect species continue to decline.

I am aware of these things , but I am not understanding what about them, is salient, In your opinion.

Only because insects pollinate growing crops do they bear fruit. Unless plants bear fruit they will not feed other species.

[Jan Sand]

Somehow in this discussion I miss a sense of how a decision is made. I know how I make a decision and that is to visualize a favored outcome and use my experience of cause and effect to choose how to apply my understanding and the possibilities offered to attain that most favored goal. There is nothing random or undetermined in my choice of applying experience and possibility to this decision. Throwing dice or flipping a coin means I have allocated the choice to random factors and the choice is not mine but rather that of a coin or the dice. If the procedures I choose havea high probability of success then I may easily succeed. If the probability is low then the decision approaches a dice or coin toss with a lower probability of success. I have no idea what freedom of will means in this process or where it comes from or how it may be applied.

[Belindi]

Jan, some people conflate 'voluntary' and 'free'. I too feel that my choices are more voluntary , that's to say more free when I reason about them.

[Jan Sand]

Of course, even the brightest people make idiotic decisions out of prejudices or hasty or greedy motivations. Just look at the way the planet is rushing to destruction by global warming or nuclear war. If that's free will I am not in favor.

[Jan Sand]

There is a lecture by a scientist at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eC14GonZnU which deals with much of science and mathematics and philosophy from a new perspective and has references to both free will and determinism in a very fundamental wayt hat is quite new and worthwhile to understand. Since I am not mathematically oriented some of it is beyond my understandind but nevertheless it isworth listening to.

[Burning ghost]

There is a lecture by a scientist at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eC14GonZnU which deals with much of science and mathematics and philosophy from a new perspective and has references to both free will and determinism in a very fundamental wayt hat is quite new and worthwhile to understand. Since I am not mathematically oriented some of it is beyond my understandind but nevertheless it isworth listening to.

This looks a lot like something I’m reading : “Chaos: Making a New Science” James Gleick

[Burning ghost]

Note: “random” mathematics doesn’t mean what we generally refer to in day-to-day speech as “random”. Nothing is “random” REALLY, so to speak

[Belindi]

Note: “random” mathematics doesn’t mean what we generally refer to in day-to-day speech as “random”. Nothing is “random” REALLY, so to speak

A point that should be made at frequent intervals.

[Mark Moseley]

Decisions can be made instinctively or rationally.

In unexpected situations, if I react instinctively, then the reaction is rooted in fear: fight or flight.

I am attempting to force myself to rationally evaluate alternatives when an unexpected situation arises. That is not always easy.

[Belindi]

Decisions can be made instinctively or rationally.

In unexpected situations, if I react instinctively, then the reaction is rooted in fear: fight or flight.

I am attempting to force myself to rationally evaluate alternatives when an unexpected situation arises. That is not always easy.

But Free Will is neither instinct nor reason. It's a supernatural adjunct to a man.