Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

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Eduk
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk »

I'm possibly naive, but I always thought most people believed in cause and effect and free will without really considering (or caring) if there was a paradox.
Unknown means unknown.
Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote:
Well you do understand that many, if not most deteriminists do not believe in voluntary action. I suppose we are free to create our own definitions, but by your definition of free will, it does not acknowledge voluntary action as evidence of free will, it will not allow influencers of decision making (<100% causation), so you leave us with a hollow, unrealistic shell of what free will could be, that essentially no one I know could subscribe to. You win. Big deal.
That's exactly correct. The possibility of absolute Free Will dispensed with we can discover that man's freedom of choice has not disappeared entirely but that his freedom of choice varies according to the level of reason that's brought to bear upon any choice or decision. This sort of freedom can be empirically examined as liberal education systems are founded upon increasing the learner's freedom by increasing his use of reason. We can assess our own acts by introspecting about whether we have impulsively reacted to circumstances or reflected before acting. A politician who has knowledge and reason at her command will be more successful than one who has temper tantrums.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

A decision, assumedly made, for any understood reason, is, by that, tied rigidly to that reason and thereby, cannot be accepted as free. For freedom, in definition, requires no external demand. Beyond that, a decision made with no external demand cannot be anything but random and a random decision is self condradicting and connot be accepted as a decision.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

That last comment of mine sems to require a small extension. It indicates that time as a fourth dimension out of Einsteinian theory is continuous and the instant in the fourth dimension that we all acknowledge as now is an illusion, as there is no such static point in actuality. A decision is a concept of a momentary stasis where an aware mind can make a choice as to what proceeds from that point onwards, but process provides no momentary stasis in actuality. It is continuous and by that continuouity a decision to act in a particular way must merely be an element in that continuity. Just as the now that we all acknowledge is an illusion, the nature of a free decision is an illusion and if the time dimension is accepted as continuous then the illusion of making decisions is merely part of that illusion.

One possibility has occurred to me. If time is not one dimensional, but at least two dimensional where the fourth and a fifth dimension form a plane, then there can be a multitude of time lines on that plane so that the illusion of making a decision can appear as a reality to slip into a different time line much as a train can switch to a different track. I cannot see how that can be observed.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote: February 16th, 2019, 7:06 am That last comment of mine sems to require a small extension. It indicates that time as a fourth dimension out of Einsteinian theory is continuous and the instant in the fourth dimension that we all acknowledge as now is an illusion, as there is no such static point in actuality. A decision is a concept of a momentary stasis where an aware mind can make a choice as to what proceeds from that point onwards, but process provides no momentary stasis in actuality. It is continuous and by that continuouity a decision to act in a particular way must merely be an element in that continuity. Just as the now that we all acknowledge is an illusion, the nature of a free decision is an illusion and if the time dimension is accepted as continuous then the illusion of making decisions is merely part of that illusion.

One possibility has occurred to me. If time is not one dimensional, but at least two dimensional where the fourth and a fifth dimension form a plane, then there can be a multitude of time lines on that plane so that the illusion of making a decision can appear as a reality to slip into a different time line much as a train can switch to a different track. I cannot see how that can be observed.
But freedom is human , it's not an eternal verity. As human, freedom is a relative quality which relates to degrees , or levels, of freedom.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Stop kidding yourself. you're an animal like any bird, alligator or squirrel. We all live in the sam universal continuum.
Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote: February 16th, 2019, 9:01 am Stop kidding yourself. you're an animal like any bird, alligator or squirrel. We all live in the sam universal continuum.
Other animals (arguably) don't discuss concepts such as the nature of freedom.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Aside from the obvious fact that no one has the slightest concept as to what other animals might discuss, not even the average jellyfish has made the slightest attempt to destroy much of life on this planet, including their own. That consists of such a monumental stupidity that not even the dumbest paramecium would consider it worthwhile. Humans seem to have attained that honor.
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The Beast
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast »

Reality or illusion? We can concentrate on some rotational value Ψ to see how the representation of the Splendor may do or not. Everything rotates. There is a point deep inside the Earth that rotates little. All other rotations are its splendor. This point rotates around the Sun. The sun rotates in many ways. There is a point in its center…. The Universal seed had the Splendor prior to the Big Bang and all the Splendor since belong to it. No matter how far. This is the materialistic way. Inside the seed is the message. It might be that the message is the seed. It is in the splendor where the message is present. We might say yes or not. It has a name: Free Will. The latest representation of Free Will is the self-aware Free Will. There is a point within me. It is my Free Will. I am what I’m trying to be or not to be.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

If you get far enough away from a star it appears to be a point. Proper tools of observation.provide tools for determining that a star can be seen as rather large. Nevertheless. there can be located , within any sphere, the absolute center and this, by definition, is imaginary and cannot rotate since it has no extension. Free will. on the other hand, can neither rotate nor have extension and, neatly, is both imaginary and pointless.
Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

Jan Sand wrote: February 16th, 2019, 9:40 am Aside from the obvious fact that no one has the slightest concept as to what other animals might discuss, not even the average jellyfish has made the slightest attempt to destroy much of life on this planet, including their own. That consists of such a monumental stupidity that not even the dumbest paramecium would consider it worthwhile. Humans seem to have attained that honor.
Jellyfish and even intelligent parrots lack the freedom to destroy life on Earth.

Jan, most people use 'discuss' with the implication that human language is the medium for communication.

You are of course right that as a species we are stupid and evil beyond even the dinosaurs. No other species has had the knowledge that it is destroying its entire habitat.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

My understanding of the word discuss is that it is an interchange of information. Since even computers can do that perhaps most people should modify their use of the word.
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The Beast
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast »

I, with my imagination, can see an imaginary point. I make this point real as I draw a circle in a piece of paper. The circle is complete but, I know that the circle is also imaginary as my mathematical understanding said there is no way to return to the same point I started from. So, there is a point and a circle and my mathematical understanding. I now draw a radius from the imaginary point to this instance of my lifetime. If one is real so is the other one. If one is gone would the other one be gone as well?... such a big distance and so spooky.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

I probably misunderstand what you are trying to say, but if you draw something it is real and the center of a drawn circle may not be indicated by a dot, but nevertheless it exists.
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Halc
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Halc »

Belindi wrote: February 17th, 2019, 10:46 am Jellyfish and even intelligent parrots lack the freedom to destroy life on Earth.
Cyanobacteria did a fine job of it over 3 billion years ago, and it didn't take free will to do it. It just took a species that failed to give a crap about its own consequences.

The Holocene extinction event is much like that early extinction event, except it remains to be seen if the species causing it will survive the destruction it wreaks.
You are of course right that as a species we are stupid and evil beyond even the dinosaurs. No other species has had the knowledge that it is destroying its entire habitat.
I think we're smarter than the dinosaurs, who would similarly destroy their own habitat if they only knew how.
I imagine there could be creatures that actively refrain from doing this, but humans are not among them.

Why is any of this relevant to a discussion on free will?
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