Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

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JosephM
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM »

Ok, then we need to hammer out a definition or two that we can agree on , before we can assert to be in accord. Right?
Could we agree that will is state of mind which may direct our actions , and that it is neither the actions nor the ramification of those actions , and that the will itself is not contraindicated by the failure to achieve some.. larger ..eventualities? or goal?
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

I do believe we are edging into a definition of insanity.
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JosephM
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM »

Jan Sand wrote: February 13th, 2019, 3:16 pm I do believe we are edging into a definition of insanity.
:) I just dont know what you mean, but if pressed, I would have to say that the nature of human mind is indeed in that ballpark.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Extremes of speculation frequently wander off probable paths and stumble into unexpected realities. For instance, in a venture of humor today's NY Times has a column expressing a wild opinion that the patterns of human reaction to the expected mass extermination of life on the planet may be part of a plot for extraterrestrials to conquer the planet. As extreme as this idea may be, it is the only way to logically explain the almost total non-reaction to this vast oncoming disaster. Insanity and sanity are difficult to distinguish here and free will may fall into the same category
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chewybrian
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by chewybrian »

Jan Sand wrote: February 13th, 2019, 11:08 am In general, it might be worthwhile to differentiate what makes will or decision. If one will s for somethiong to happen based on the possibility of that decision to be effectual, one must analyze that action on the basis of what determines the success of that decision. Anybody is free to decide whatever they want but the success of thast decision to be effectual cannot be based on anything but deterministic principles.
Free will is first and foremost the ability to form opinions. Your freedom to decide what to think about something is sufficient to show free will, and your ability to follow through on your wishes in the real world does not reflect on your having or not having free will. From Epictetus:
Sickness is a hindrance to the body, but not to your ability to choose, unless that is your choice. Lameness is a hindrance to the leg, but not to your ability to choose. Say this to yourself with regard to everything that happens, then you will see such obstacles as hindrances to something else, but not to yourself.
Assuming you believe in free will, then you would not say it was lost because you were thrown in jail, or lost in the wilderness, would you? It would not be lost any more than your ability to ride a bicycle. You can't ride if there is no bicycle available to you, any more than you could order a burger and fries if you were lost in the wilderness. But, to say free will is lost or diminished because potential actions or results are blocked at any time is not right. Perhaps it is a straw man or simply a misunderstanding of what makes up free will.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Anyone is perfectly capable of being stupid or uninformed and to say that this confers nothing on the nature of free will may have some validity but it is like saying that not having wings does not affect your ability to fly. The same thought applies to sickness since the brain and all its interconnections is not independent of the condition of the entire organism. Sickness of the body affects the mind's ability to judge as do drugs and alcohol . The mind is never free of the body since they are totally integrated and even a poor meal or a nasty argument can affect a person's quality of judgment
Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

ChewyBrian wrote:
Assuming you believe in free will, then you would not say it was lost because you were thrown in jail, or lost in the wilderness, would you? It would not be lost any more than your ability to ride a bicycle. You can't ride if there is no bicycle available to you, any more than you could order a burger and fries if you were lost in the wilderness. But, to say free will is lost or diminished because potential actions or results are blocked at any time is not right. Perhaps it is a straw man or simply a misunderstanding of what makes up free will.
I agree. Origination in the case of Free Will means that Free Will is not caused by any predetermining cause or causes but that Free Will is free of causation. So Free Will is an originator; the only originator apart from existence itself, or God( if you like). Everything else was caused before it existed.

The other thing that can be said of Free Will is that once the Free Will has originated an action, a thought, or any event it is cause or part cause of other events. If you had this Free Will thing when you were entirely solitary , lost in the desert or something, your Free Will thing could still originate your final thought before you actually died. Even then, superstitious folk might claim that your Free Will thing is the same thing as your immortal soul and would continue to originate thoughts in the Hereafter. Then, once you Free Will thing had moved over into the Hereafter , he, she, it, or all three would continue to be free of all predisposing causes but would itself be cause of something or other that happens in the Hereafter.

My justification for claming that the Free Will thing is commonly held to be uncaused but itself be a predisposing cause is that FreeWill devotees all believe that they can cause events to happen.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Lost in this comment is the fundamental understanding that all actions in this particular universe are either through predetermination or random, neither of which has anything to do with free will.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk »

When I talk about free will I am talking about my experience of free will. I cannot, sadly, perfectly explain what free is. It is not either Belindi or Jan Sand version of impossible free will. The free will I have is possible.
Of course you might argue that the free will I have isn't the kind of free will that you want it to be. That's fine. But you can't argue that the free will I have isn't the free will I have.
Unknown means unknown.
Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi »

Eduk wrote: February 14th, 2019, 7:57 am When I talk about free will I am talking about my experience of free will. I cannot, sadly, perfectly explain what free is. It is not either @Belindi or @Jan Sand version of impossible free will. The free will I have is possible.
Of course you might argue that the free will I have isn't the kind of free will that you want it to be. That's fine. But you can't argue that the free will I have isn't the free will I have.
How big a proportion of the whole Eduk is Eduk's free will thing? Eduk is a rational person who pays attention to the sate of his car's brakes and so on. So is Eduk's free will a tiny thin little almost undetactible bit of neuronal tissue which can override concerns about the car's brakes and so on?
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

Anyone can, of course, claim it, but there also are a number of people who are absolutely confident that they are Napoleon. Permit me my doubts.
Eduk
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk »

Anyone can, of course, claim it, but there also are a number of people who are absolutely confident that they are Napoleon. Permit me my doubts.
Sorry is that directed at me? It is a truism to say that the free will I have is the free will I have. This is simple logic such that a = a. You can disagree that a = a if you like but then we will seriously never get anywhere.
How big a proportion of the whole Eduk is Eduk's free will thing? Eduk is a rational person who pays attention to the sate of his car's brakes and so on. So is Eduk's free will a tiny thin little almost undetactible bit of neuronal tissue which can override concerns about the car's brakes and so on?
No idea how to quantify it really Belindi. You made a good point earlier that we are an amalgamation of many many things, this I agree with. You could see free will as a small and barely significant part of the whole, in all honesty I don't know, maybe it is. Personally (and without any expertise on the matter) it might be a small part of the whole but it seems like quite a significant part.
As to where it resides, that is unknown. I would guess it was an emergent property of a parallel and distributed process, but that is just a guess.
Unknown means unknown.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

What puzzles me most is the utility of a decision making system that is independent of consequences. When i make a decision I do my best to be aware of the consequences and those consequences are predictable because I understand that my actions are consequential. Why would I prefer to make a decision where the consequences are unpredictable?
Eduk
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk »

What puzzles me most is the utility of a decision making system that is independent of consequences. When i make a decision I do my best to be aware of the consequences and those consequences are predictable because I understand that my actions are consequential. Why would I prefer to make a decision where the consequences are unpredictable?
Still have no idea if this is directed at me? I assume Belindi ?
Unknown means unknown.
Jan Sand
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand »

It is a question directed at anyone who desires free will, whatever that might be.
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