Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
- JosephM
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
Could we agree that will is state of mind which may direct our actions , and that it is neither the actions nor the ramification of those actions , and that the will itself is not contraindicated by the failure to achieve some.. larger ..eventualities? or goal?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
- JosephM
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
- chewybrian
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
Free will is first and foremost the ability to form opinions. Your freedom to decide what to think about something is sufficient to show free will, and your ability to follow through on your wishes in the real world does not reflect on your having or not having free will. From Epictetus:Jan Sand wrote: ↑February 13th, 2019, 11:08 am In general, it might be worthwhile to differentiate what makes will or decision. If one will s for somethiong to happen based on the possibility of that decision to be effectual, one must analyze that action on the basis of what determines the success of that decision. Anybody is free to decide whatever they want but the success of thast decision to be effectual cannot be based on anything but deterministic principles.
Assuming you believe in free will, then you would not say it was lost because you were thrown in jail, or lost in the wilderness, would you? It would not be lost any more than your ability to ride a bicycle. You can't ride if there is no bicycle available to you, any more than you could order a burger and fries if you were lost in the wilderness. But, to say free will is lost or diminished because potential actions or results are blocked at any time is not right. Perhaps it is a straw man or simply a misunderstanding of what makes up free will.Sickness is a hindrance to the body, but not to your ability to choose, unless that is your choice. Lameness is a hindrance to the leg, but not to your ability to choose. Say this to yourself with regard to everything that happens, then you will see such obstacles as hindrances to something else, but not to yourself.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
I agree. Origination in the case of Free Will means that Free Will is not caused by any predetermining cause or causes but that Free Will is free of causation. So Free Will is an originator; the only originator apart from existence itself, or God( if you like). Everything else was caused before it existed.Assuming you believe in free will, then you would not say it was lost because you were thrown in jail, or lost in the wilderness, would you? It would not be lost any more than your ability to ride a bicycle. You can't ride if there is no bicycle available to you, any more than you could order a burger and fries if you were lost in the wilderness. But, to say free will is lost or diminished because potential actions or results are blocked at any time is not right. Perhaps it is a straw man or simply a misunderstanding of what makes up free will.
The other thing that can be said of Free Will is that once the Free Will has originated an action, a thought, or any event it is cause or part cause of other events. If you had this Free Will thing when you were entirely solitary , lost in the desert or something, your Free Will thing could still originate your final thought before you actually died. Even then, superstitious folk might claim that your Free Will thing is the same thing as your immortal soul and would continue to originate thoughts in the Hereafter. Then, once you Free Will thing had moved over into the Hereafter , he, she, it, or all three would continue to be free of all predisposing causes but would itself be cause of something or other that happens in the Hereafter.
My justification for claming that the Free Will thing is commonly held to be uncaused but itself be a predisposing cause is that FreeWill devotees all believe that they can cause events to happen.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
Of course you might argue that the free will I have isn't the kind of free will that you want it to be. That's fine. But you can't argue that the free will I have isn't the free will I have.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
How big a proportion of the whole Eduk is Eduk's free will thing? Eduk is a rational person who pays attention to the sate of his car's brakes and so on. So is Eduk's free will a tiny thin little almost undetactible bit of neuronal tissue which can override concerns about the car's brakes and so on?Eduk wrote: ↑February 14th, 2019, 7:57 am When I talk about free will I am talking about my experience of free will. I cannot, sadly, perfectly explain what free is. It is not either @Belindi or @Jan Sand version of impossible free will. The free will I have is possible.
Of course you might argue that the free will I have isn't the kind of free will that you want it to be. That's fine. But you can't argue that the free will I have isn't the free will I have.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
Sorry is that directed at me? It is a truism to say that the free will I have is the free will I have. This is simple logic such that a = a. You can disagree that a = a if you like but then we will seriously never get anywhere.Anyone can, of course, claim it, but there also are a number of people who are absolutely confident that they are Napoleon. Permit me my doubts.
No idea how to quantify it really Belindi. You made a good point earlier that we are an amalgamation of many many things, this I agree with. You could see free will as a small and barely significant part of the whole, in all honesty I don't know, maybe it is. Personally (and without any expertise on the matter) it might be a small part of the whole but it seems like quite a significant part.How big a proportion of the whole Eduk is Eduk's free will thing? Eduk is a rational person who pays attention to the sate of his car's brakes and so on. So is Eduk's free will a tiny thin little almost undetactible bit of neuronal tissue which can override concerns about the car's brakes and so on?
As to where it resides, that is unknown. I would guess it was an emergent property of a parallel and distributed process, but that is just a guess.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
Still have no idea if this is directed at me? I assume Belindi ?What puzzles me most is the utility of a decision making system that is independent of consequences. When i make a decision I do my best to be aware of the consequences and those consequences are predictable because I understand that my actions are consequential. Why would I prefer to make a decision where the consequences are unpredictable?
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?
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