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Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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The Beast
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast » February 3rd, 2019, 6:48 pm

In all analysis of the unknown we should consider the quantities and the qualitive. The first consideration (quality) is: Does the good exist? And if it does then in this galaxy; in this Universe and the forever verse Good is one. If Good does not exist, then the critique of Reason is irrelevant. Put aside reason to say: Happy or sad? I might assess that Metaphysics looks at the root of it. So, the Good exist in the good acts of humans and as such, their free will is asserted. It exists.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 3rd, 2019, 9:04 pm

You are, of curse, free to indulge yourself to think anything you please but as evolution consistently demonstrates, if you attempt to construct your life on a fantasy that is not responsive to the strict demands of survival, you not only will have a short and unsatisfactory life, but your possibilities for procreation will be severely limited. That kind of freedom does not impress me as being very useful.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by LuckyR » February 3rd, 2019, 10:12 pm

Belindi wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 2:46 pm
Jan Sand wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 11:04 am
In the general discussion of will it seems to me it is not a problem concerned with physics but rather psychology- It concerns how a decision is made which is involved with judgement. Each of us develops personal systems of evaluation depending upon our experience and how we react to that experience and understand it. There is no firm absolute system for all thinking people in that area for every individual so the question should be - what should a will be free of? All decisions are based on a choice of relevant factors and these differ between people.
Good question, Jan. I think that a will that is Free is free , not only of causal influnces from the outer environment , but also free of causes from the body such as emotion-generating hormones, and brain chemicals
Really? Your definition of Free sounds a lot like "random", which if true is sort of a strawman definition. As an aside, while determinists frequently dismiss arguments by pointing out the supposed difference between Free and free, much less energy is devoted to parsing the difference between determinism and predeterminism.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 3rd, 2019, 11:14 pm

Although the brain, which is a guessing mechanism for attempting to assess information which is useful and that which may have dangerous consequences is perfectly free to make terrible mistakes. Correct assumptions on the nature of reality are rewarding and are based on discovering and utilizing natural laws of consequence which are fixed. This is the basis for predetermination and ignoring deleterious consequence is not only useless but very dangerous and frequently fatal.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 4th, 2019, 7:08 am

LuckyR wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 10:12 pm
Belindi wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 2:46 pm


Good question, Jan. I think that a will that is Free is free , not only of causal influnces from the outer environment , but also free of causes from the body such as emotion-generating hormones, and brain chemicals
Really? Your definition of Free sounds a lot like "random", which if true is sort of a strawman definition. As an aside, while determinists frequently dismiss arguments by pointing out the supposed difference between Free and free, much less energy is devoted to parsing the difference between determinism and predeterminism.
Determinism is not random because psychological dispositions of genetic origin are caused. Also men ( and some other animals if you wish)can learn from experience to control their reactive emotions and thereby help to make their futures less chaotic . For instance a drug addict, and a man who cannot control his temper , have less power i.e. less freedom than a man who can, often by way of reason, control his reactions. One hopes that world leaders and other powerful men can control their immediate emotional reactions: such men can predict with a higher degree of probability than
can men who react with no thought for cause and effect.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 4th, 2019, 8:07 am

The general ineffective resolutions of the several conferences by world leaders in attempts to confront and properly deal with the juggernaut of global warming is a clear indication that humanity has proven that humanity with its so-called superior mental apparatus is progressing rather rapidly (a matter of a couple of decades at best) towards the extinction of both humanity and much of other life on the planet. If this is a prime example of free will I am rather inclined to prefer some other method of approach to rational thought.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk » February 4th, 2019, 8:13 am

that humanity with its so-called superior mental apparatus is progressing rather rapidly (a matter of a couple of decades at best) towards the extinction of both humanity and much of other life on the planet.
I'm looking forward to you eating humble pie in 20 years time. Not that you would of course.
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 4th, 2019, 9:02 am

In 20 years I shall be 113 years old and by then there should be many good cookbooks for how to cook or bake a wild humble as there will be, doubtlessly, nothing else for humans to consume aside from each other and that resource will be intensively exploited.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast » February 4th, 2019, 4:24 pm

Independently of the Good intrinsic to Belief and evolving in the DNA, we exercise our free will in defining the Good as oppose to the chaotic happiness of children or the chaotic deteriorating sadness of old age. As such, (the Good) may evolve despite ignorance and inexperience. The character of Good may be in fact an inherited trait that could be eaten by those who do not have it or by the (so called) sons of the Earth. Dare to teach the words? Starting with Fair… it might dare resonate (feeling) in my being as true.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 4th, 2019, 11:36 pm

Awful lot of fuzzy words there. There is no such thing as a universal good. Good and bad are two sides of the same coin. Human domination of the planet has been fantastically beneficial for the small sector of clever swindlers who have always controlled all the rest. The kings, the emperors, the dictators, the presidents, the mafia bosses, the popes, the corporate heads, the generals, the so called great people who have swindled, murdered, tortured their way to control the planet and are now totally destroying it . It's been a wonderful drama and it soon looks to be ending while the forces of nature wipe away the mess for a few million years until the bacteria have time enough to give it another try. Call it good or bad or whatever you like. It doesn't change whatever it is.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 5th, 2019, 7:44 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 11:36 pm
Awful lot of fuzzy words there. There is no such thing as a universal good. Good and bad are two sides of the same coin. Human domination of the planet has been fantastically beneficial for the small sector of clever swindlers who have always controlled all the rest. The kings, the emperors, the dictators, the presidents, the mafia bosses, the popes, the corporate heads, the generals, the so called great people who have swindled, murdered, tortured their way to control the planet and are now totally destroying it . It's been a wonderful drama and it soon looks to be ending while the forces of nature wipe away the mess for a few million years until the bacteria have time enough to give it another try. Call it good or bad or whatever you like. It doesn't change whatever it is.
Universal good doesn't exist as an entity but as an aspiration which you demonstrate performatively by acting Cassandra.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 5th, 2019, 8:25 am

There are great variations in human possibilities but my oddities, as with other artists and poets is a diversion not quite average. I seem to relate with other forms of life with distinct limitations. Honeybees and mushrooms and that green veined growth in Roquefort cheese remain something of a mystery to me in their aspirations and dreams and sexual attitudes. I have felt rather close to mice and white rats and have had, at various times, close relationships with dogs and cats and several seagulls, a sparrow named Humphrey that lived with me for eight years, a rabbit. a very friendly pair of angel fish, a crow, a muskrat, and, rather briefly, a quite bright praying mantis. People have always been a large puzzle and in general, aside from my wife who died in 2010, a son who died in 1996, I have lived alone for about 15 years and found that rather satisfactory. No doubt there are many congenial and sensible people in the world but it is quite obvious the rabidly insane have been in control for most of human history and most ferociously at the present era. The delights in persecution and brutality ans most peculiar affectations are both fascinating and horrifying so I prefer living alone and write poetry and play with graphic experiments and bake cakes and fry eggs. I slipped on the ice here in Helsinki just before Christmas and broke my left arm but it is almost completely healed so I do fairly well since medical care here is far better than New York City where I originated . The films on YouTube are not only violent and idiotic but also completely boring so I entertain myself by trying to tell people it is time to run out into the street and scream but nobody pays any attention which is probably a good thing since it would be hard to sleep with all that noise.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM » February 5th, 2019, 12:42 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
February 5th, 2019, 8:25 am
There are great variations in human possibilities but my oddities, as with other artists and poets is a diversion not quite average. I seem to relate with other forms of life with distinct limitations. Honeybees and mushrooms and that green veined growth in Roquefort cheese remain something of a mystery to me in their aspirations and dreams and sexual attitudes. I have felt rather close to mice and white rats and have had, at various times, close relationships with dogs and cats and several seagulls, a sparrow named Humphrey that lived with me for eight years, a rabbit. a very friendly pair of angel fish, a crow, a muskrat, and, rather briefly, a quite bright praying mantis. People have always been a large puzzle and in general, aside from my wife who died in 2010, a son who died in 1996, I have lived alone for about 15 years and found that rather satisfactory. No doubt there are many congenial and sensible people in the world but it is quite obvious the rabidly insane have been in control for most of human history and most ferociously at the present era. The delights in persecution and brutality ans most peculiar affectations are both fascinating and horrifying so I prefer living alone and write poetry and play with graphic experiments and bake cakes and fry eggs. I slipped on the ice here in Helsinki just before Christmas and broke my left arm but it is almost completely healed so I do fairly well since medical care here is far better than New York City where I originated . The films on YouTube are not only violent and idiotic but also completely boring so I entertain myself by trying to tell people it is time to run out into the street and scream but nobody pays any attention which is probably a good thing since it would be hard to sleep with all that noise.
In that -humans can imagine futures that do not exist ,nor come to pass,- its the insanity of the human brain which enables humans to direct the course of real events, bringing novel things into existence. ( the form of the 'insanity' is the possession of a mental image which does not faithfully represent the true state of reality that we collectively infer.)

Likewise , it may be envisioned that one can execute a will , causing events to deviate from a historical timeline , that has yet to happen. (tautologically - the string of events that actually happen is the string of events that do happen , and there is no evidence that there is another ,which could be deviated from. Which I believe is the principle that must prevail for many to believe that will is free.)

But if one abandons that impossible state of affairs, then ..It seems simple enough that free will is the will that one effectuates the certain path of destiny with , and so then there is no problem between determinism and free will being simultaneously true.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 5th, 2019, 7:15 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
Honeybees and mushrooms and that green veined growth in Roquefort cheese remain something of a mystery to me in their aspirations and dreams and sexual attitudes.
They can be quiescent because they don't need religions and other ideologies. They probably do enjoy the air they breathe.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 5th, 2019, 10:13 pm

Whether or not a mushroom enjoys fresh air is probably quite difficult to discern. I have never seen any indication tha Sigmund Freud attempted to psychoanalyze a mushroom since mushrooms are merely fruiting bodies and the whole creature is some sort of massive underground structure. Nevertheless it presents an interesting challenge to an adventurous psychologist - especially in the area of free will.

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