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Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belindi
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 8th, 2019, 6:48 am

Halc wrote:
For the FW thing to be the case, one must be able to demonstrate agency over seeming random events: I can consistently will the cat to be dead or alive before I measure it, or some such act.
Otherwise, the will is subject to dice rolling instead of deterministic physics, which sounds just as not-free. You sort of recognize this problem in your last post on the first page.
(my underline)

The so-called Free Will is uncaused, and if it existed a so-called Free Will event would be a truly random event that's to say a different sort of 'random' from dice- rolling which although unpredictable is caused.

Determinism on the other hand does allow for degrees of freedom (NB freedom is not a synonym for so-called Free Will). The degrees of freedom which Determinism yields depend upon inductive reasoning and accumulation of knowledge.Or to put the matter crudely, a wise man is more free than a fool.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Burning ghost » February 8th, 2019, 7:05 am

I’m confused as to why these threads last this long at all.

We have a concept for “limit” so free will exists within those bounds. Determinism is a system of understanding based on “limit”. We know stuff because we apply limits to them because we have a concept of “limit”. Limits “exist” and are “real” therefore free will exists because determinism is present and useful.

Beyond this most arguments are merely exercises in tail chasing.

Those who insist that all cognitive recognition is “delusional” do so by eradicating any differentiation across the spectrum of “real,” “imagined,” “illusion” and “delusion.”

Certain types of “determinism” negate the issue of “free will” and others set ip the question of the limits of “free will” - as in choice - within possibly preset bounds. Not being unknowing omnipotent beings we generally find such stretches of our cognition both scary, intriguing and amazing.
AKA badgerjelly

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The Beast
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast » February 8th, 2019, 1:55 pm

Whether an electron spins right or spins left is of an unknown significance. What is true is the laws of physics that allows the combinations of energies. In humans the word “free” might have an amplitude of meaning and feeling. However, in the individual it has an energy signature that might be determine by the laws of physics and that might vary (or not) with time. If “I” recall the word free, I direct an energy to reconfigure free and its meaning. “I” spin the energy to a call to a signature much like my hand mixing vegies. The bottom line: It is Time steering the Forms. Obviously, the laws of Physics stand in the way of what already exist versus what my mind creates. As above so is below.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 8th, 2019, 2:06 pm

Just as a matter of curiosity, how can you know whether you are observing an electron whether you are looking at the top or the bottom of an electron? Maybe they all spin the same way but sometimes you are are observing one end or the other,

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by The Beast » February 8th, 2019, 2:56 pm

The nature of an electron is energy. Is it matter? So, all the spin directions at once(up, down, left, right, obliques) could be achieved. This instance of reality is called the CAT state. It is of course against the laws of Physics and it can only be achieved for a few seconds as of a while back. And, as for the significance? IMO: Anything is possible as in the case of dreaming.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM » February 8th, 2019, 6:29 pm

" Why in the world would one want to base their actions on initiated causal chains. That sounds like a fast track to being unfit and meeting a quick death. Suppose I wanted to exercise free will in when to cross the street. I'd still like to base my decision on detection of gaps in the traffic rather than starting a new causal chain and crossing at a random moment. I can think of no decision that would benefit from such methods. "

Folks probably would like this independence to be feasible ,so as to endorse a concept of a self seperate from causal chains ,so that they see themselves as having merit, freedom ,or please God.


Often, the tendency is to disrespect that which does not show sentience or cannot initiate any action. People would rather have the respect for themselves that inorganic ,or simple life forms ,do not get.


Finally it is felt that personal power is desirable. The having of this power , is dubious in deterministic situations. It affects ,what people choose to do, whether they can accept ownership for merit , or adopt a bummed-out fatalistic position, but conversely , the consideration -that the world, or one's life- is not ones 'fault' may be a great relief.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 9th, 2019, 12:48 am

The concept of free will was a theocratic excuse for Cod who is assumed to be perfect and therefor, in His creation of the universe had to have full knowledge of all consequences of His actions. Under those assumptions ir was difficult to explain the immense presence of evil and stupidity exhibited by much of humanity. So free will was invented to permit humans to be stupid and evil, something that God could not be. In these current days when a large number of quite bright people dismiss the necessity of God's existence, the peculiar concept of free will persists to interfere with the obvious cause and effect that controls all observed action in the universe and somehow humanity is presumed to be independent of this universal discipline.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Halc » February 9th, 2019, 1:41 am

JosephM wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 6:29 pm
Folks probably would like this independence to be feasible ,so as to endorse a concept of a self seperate from causal chains ,so that they see themselves as having merit, freedom ,or please God.
Indeed, I imagine such things are a large part of the motivation behind this topic.
Often, the tendency is to disrespect that which does not show sentience or cannot initiate any action. People would rather have the respect for themselves that inorganic ,or simple life forms ,do not get.
I hold nothing in higher or lesser respect because of its ability (or lack of it) to initiate cause, and I suspect neither would any god. But of course, that's just me.
While I initiate cause all the time, I do not do so by act of will and I feel no responsibility for it.
Finally it is felt that personal power is desirable. The having of this power , is dubious in deterministic situations. It affects ,what people choose to do, whether they can accept ownership for merit , or adopt a bummed-out fatalistic position, but conversely , the consideration -that the world, or one's life- is not ones 'fault' may be a great relief.
I have that sort of power though. All kinds of future events unfold due to the decisions I make. The will need not be 'free' for that to be the case. Nothing would have evolved any brains at all if said brains did not give one the power to make responsible choices.

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Halc
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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Halc » February 9th, 2019, 1:48 am

Belindi wrote:
February 8th, 2019, 6:48 am
The so-called Free Will is uncaused, and if it existed a so-called Free Will event would be a truly random event that's to say a different sort of 'random' from dice- rolling which although unpredictable is caused.
I think you misunderstand me. The dice of which I speak are theoretically truly random, uncaused. I'm not talking about classic cubes with dots on them, whose outcomes are very much caused.
Mathematics allows for perfect uncaused events like a ball rolling off a perfect cone at a random uncaused time. Any specific time is a valid solution to that problem, and hence constitutes an initiation of a causal chain.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Belindi » February 9th, 2019, 7:24 am

Halc wrote:
Mathematics allows for perfect uncaused events like a ball rolling off a perfect cone at a random uncaused time. Any specific time is a valid solution to that problem, and hence constitutes an initiation of a causal chain.
Thank you for clearing this up. I'd not known that maths provides an example of randomness. The maths illustration that you provided puzzles me .I can picture a perfect cone by analogy. Analogies are all that the mind can encompass of mathematics when it's applied to the relative world.

I can't imagine any analogy for a random uncaused time, as what time means to me is always relative time.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by JosephM » February 11th, 2019, 11:22 am

Halc wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 1:41 am
I hold nothing in higher or lesser respect because of its ability (or lack of it) to initiate cause, and I suspect neither would any god. But of course, that's just me.
While I initiate cause all the time, I do not do so by act of will and I feel no responsibility for it.
I do not wish to skew your statement but ,..
Did you just say -paraphrased- , that you don't take responsibility for the things you do ? and that godlike perhaps , you do not have differential respect for anything ?

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by LuckyR » February 12th, 2019, 3:29 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 9th, 2019, 12:48 am
The concept of free will was a theocratic excuse for Cod who is assumed to be perfect and therefor, in His creation of the universe had to have full knowledge of all consequences of His actions. Under those assumptions ir was difficult to explain the immense presence of evil and stupidity exhibited by much of humanity. So free will was invented to permit humans to be stupid and evil, something that God could not be. In these current days when a large number of quite bright people dismiss the necessity of God's existence, the peculiar concept of free will persists to interfere with the obvious cause and effect that controls all observed action in the universe and somehow humanity is presumed to be independent of this universal discipline.
Actually free will didn't need to be "invented" since it is the casual assumption of everyone's personal experience. Determinism is the concept that had to be invented. Of course neither of the above statements prove or disprove either free will or determinism. You are correct that simplistic religions with gods who stand in judgment do require free will, it's just that folks assumed that anyway, thus why religion was such an easy sell.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 3:44 am

The most important scientific discoveries have been made when obvious assumptions are questioned. For instance, it is quite obvious to most people that the Sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Eduk » February 12th, 2019, 4:34 am

Sure questions are good. But the answer to the question does matter.
Unknown means unknown.

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Re: Does determinism really pose a problem for free will?

Post by Jan Sand » February 12th, 2019, 4:42 am

It depends a great deal on what you consider important and how you regard the basis for making decisions. If you really don't care, of course, itdoesn't matter.

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