Materialism is absurd

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Atla
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul wrote: June 17th, 2019, 2:12 pm
Atla wrote: June 16th, 2019, 3:34 pm And there is zero evidence for that, nothing.
If "that" refers to brain-independent nonanimal consciousness, you're right.
Atla wrote: June 16th, 2019, 3:34 pmDoesn't even make sense in principle that a particular arrangement of physical stuff should give rise to qualia, while other arrangements shouldn't.
Yes, it does make sense. What doesn't make sense is panpsychism, according to which all nonbiological physical systems, including molecules and atoms, can generate qualia.
Atla wrote: June 16th, 2019, 3:34 pmSo you say:
And then you do the opposite and stick to your antiscientific belief, like Sculptor.
You people stuck in a late 19th century worldview need to realize that materialism was already refuted by science long ago (along with idealism).
???
The materialistic worldview is neither antiscientific nor scientifically refuted—on the contrary!
I also think that the argument can be made that the kind of materialism you are trapped it could be classified as a learned mental disorder. Whenever qualia comes up, you automatically dismiss it as something that doesn't exist, and then start to talk about something else and call that something else qualia.

In short you deny that you have experiences, but you are either unaware of this or are unwilling to admit it. It's impossible to have a conversation with someone like that.
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Atla
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul wrote: June 17th, 2019, 2:12 pm
Atla wrote: June 16th, 2019, 3:34 pmDoesn't even make sense in principle that a particular arrangement of physical stuff should give rise to qualia, while other arrangements shouldn't.
Yes, it does make sense.
I'll try one last time.

Let me be very clear here becuase you obviously don't know much about modern science.

There has NEVER been any evidence whatsoever that would suggest that matter as arranged as in animals brains, would give rise to something extra that is qualia.

Nor does this even make sense in principle, as matter has been observed to behave the same everywhere in the known universe.

So what you are saying is based on demonstrably irrational faith.
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Bluemist
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Thomyum2 wrote: June 15th, 2019, 2:47 pm As I understand the term, what is 'real' is that which exists and endures independent of my/our own perception of it, independent of my/our will or choice that it exist, that which is not simply imagined. In regard to materialism, it is the belief that matter, and all the concepts that accompany it, i.e. time, space, energy, etc., constitute that reality. Those things exist before us and will continue to exist after us.
That's current standard academic curricular usage of reality/existence. So, I can have no quarrel with it. That is until I go past that definition and ask some searching questions which might get me thrown out of intro classes. But the curriculum is not wrong, and neither are my questions. Asking such questions looks past learning the curriculum.

Notice that your definition presumes that reality and existence are interchangeable, so are other similar terms, for example, is. This is because if there is an eternal, unchanging underlying substance, whether that be material or otherwise, there is nothing else worth talking about. Reality universally exists and that's that.

There, 'existence' is a unary term, something either is, exists, has being or it does not.

However, 'reality' to Plato and others has degrees, which leads to a logical conundrum. Something can be more or less real. Theoretically, Plato pushed for higher reality as a measure of degree of permanence, with Forms being the highest.
But Plato also skirted and opposed the Protagorean view that only my present experience is really real with past and future fading in both directions.
Then there is 'being'. To Plato, being could mean having non-material essence, or it could imply dynamic participation in forms, or a web of relations or dynamic interaction between forms.

This should be enough to leave us confused.
Science can successfully, to a varying degree, explain and predict the behavior of these, but does science therefore actually show us that they are 'real' in this sense of the word?
Science categorizes the appearance and behavior of a changing world. That is a major difference.
Philosophy is prior to science in a metaphysical sense. By that, I don't mean to imply that there is philosophy to meet that metaphysical necessity.
Also, science and scientific facts evolve or just suddenly change as times change, or as various technologies become available. Philosophy only expands, often recycling old ideas.
If you don't believe in telekinesis then raise your right hand :wink:
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Atla wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:17 amI also think that the argument can be made that the kind of materialism you are trapped it could be classified as a learned mental disorder. Whenever qualia comes up, you automatically dismiss it as something that doesn't exist, and then start to talk about something else and call that something else qualia.
In short you deny that you have experiences, but you are either unaware of this or are unwilling to admit it. It's impossible to have a conversation with someone like that.
WTF…?!?
There must be another Consul here, because what you write above has nothing to do with me and my beliefs. The Consul who's writing this is not an antirealist but a realist about subjective experiences and qualia. I agree with Galen Strawson that eliminative materialism (eliminativism) about subjective experience/phenomenal consciousness is "the silliest view that has ever been held by any human being."

"If 'consciousness' means conscious experience in the concrete, the proposition 'Consciousness does not exist' shows itself 'absurd and impossible' by the fundamental canons of science, philosophy, and common sense. Either the proposition, therefore, is false, or it entails the most searching scientific revolution ever envisioned, not merely in psychology but in all human concept-systems and all logical and scientific methodology. Such revision, although not impossible, is greater than any attempted by a Plato, a Darwin, or an Einstein. Its positive nature I cannot conjecture, and the behaviorists themselves have shown small interest or aptitude for it. Finally, even if it were accomplished, it must be so complex that no conceivable psychological advantage would warrant its substitution for the current scheme. No living man, I think, ever seriously thought through so recondite a possibility."

(Williams, Donald Cary. "The Existence of Consciousness." In Principles of Empirical Realism: Philosophical Essays, 23-40. Springfield, IL: Charles C Thomas, 1966. p. 30)

That said, there's a distinction between reductive realism and nonreductive realism about experience/consciousness and qualia:

Reductive materialism is reductively realistic about qualia rather than eliminatively antirealistic: Phenomenal properties are real, do exist, but they are complex or structural physical properties.

Nonreductive materialism is nonreductively realistic about qualia: Phenomenal properties are real, do exist, and they emerge from or are caused by complex or structural physical properties.

There is also a nonmaterialistic nonreductive realism about qualia as represented by e.g. Chalmers' naturalistic dualism and, of course, substance dualism and substance spiritualism, both of which include an antimaterialistic property dualism.
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Atla wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:29 amLet me be very clear here becuase you obviously don't know much about modern science.

There has NEVER been any evidence whatsoever that would suggest that matter as arranged as in animals brains, would give rise to something extra that is qualia.

Nor does this even make sense in principle, as matter has been observed to behave the same everywhere in the known universe.
No, it hasn't! All material systems (masses of stuff, bodies, organisms) are constructed out of standard-model elements, but there are many different kinds of them with many structural and functional differences resulting in many different kinds of action, reaction, and interaction.

You don't seriously believe that the chemical elements on the periodic table all exhibit the same "behavior", the same actions/reactions/interactions, do you?
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Atla wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:29 amThere has NEVER been any evidence whatsoever that would suggest that matter as arranged as in animals brains, would give rise to something extra that is qualia.
When people undergo general anaesthesia, their consciousness is switched off and on again solely through the chemical manipulation of processes in their brains—which fact strongly suggests that consciousness results from physicochemical brain processes.
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul wrote: June 18th, 2019, 2:19 pm
Atla wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:29 amThere has NEVER been any evidence whatsoever that would suggest that matter as arranged as in animals brains, would give rise to something extra that is qualia.
When people undergo general anaesthesia, their consciousness is switched off and on again solely through the chemical manipulation of processes in their brains—which fact strongly suggests that consciousness results from physicochemical brain processes.
Moreover, dream research provides compelling evidence that the brain is the organ of consciousness, and that consciousness is realized in and by the brain.

"There is overwhelming evidence that the whole range of subjective conscious experiences—the entire phenomenal level of organization—does come into existence during dreaming. From this simple, well-attested fact it follows that the same physical or neural realizing basis of consciousness must be responsible for the sphere of subjective experiences both during wakefulness as well as during dreaming. The mechanisms of consciousness must be active in both states and furthermore organized in a closely similar way—otherwise dream experience would not amount to a faithful simulation of the perceptual world.

Knowledge of the physiological activity in the brain during dreaming could be utilized to constrain hypotheses about the locus of control of consciousness. Many of the sensory and motor systems that normally during wakefulness are in causal interaction with the phenomenal level, are no longer so in REM sleep. As the phenomenal level is fully realized all the same, the sensorimotor systems disengaged from phenomenal consciousness during dreaming can be excluded from the locus of control of the phenomenal level. Phenomenal consciousness cannot be ontologically dependent on any bodily or physiological state that is missing during dreaming. No state missing during dreaming can be absolutely necessary for the existence of the phenomenal level. Therefore, physiological states or activities missing during dreaming cannot be constitutive of phenomenal consciousness.

During REM sleep in the brain there is a sensory input blockade (preventing stimuli from reaching consciousness), a motor output blockade (preventing motor commands from reaching the muscles), and a highly active brain in between them. As a result of all this, the phenomenal level of subjective experience is brought about inside the brain. Yet, for an external observer the dreaming person's body appears to be paralyzed and unresponsive, revealing no behavioral signs of the vivid phenomenal world wherein the dreaming subject is immersed in all sorts of colorful adventures.

Even so, physical stimuli are received and processed by our sensory systems, but only at levels not involving consciousness."


(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. pp. 86-7)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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"The significance of the dreaming brain for the theoretical description and explanation of consciousness lies in the fact that dreaming effectively isolates the explanandum from the surrounding nonconscious biological mechanisms. When considering the dreaming brain we acquire a crystal clear distinction between the phenomenal level itself and what lies just beyond its borderlines: the preceding causes and the underlying microlevel mechanisms of consciousness, tightly surrounding the phenomenal level, but fundamentally distinct from it nonetheless.

The isolation of consciousness consists of the following elements: Sensory input is received normally by peripheral sensory organs during sleep, but blocked from consciousness at higher thalamocortical processing levels. Sensory input thus does not modulate phenomenal consciousness in any way. This is the sensory input blockade. Bodily action is experienced in dreams and related motor output is being produced by cortical motor areas during REM sleep. The motor output is blocked from reaching the muscles. This is the motor output blockade.

The isolation of consciousness in the dreaming brain establishes that sensory input and motor output (and the mechanisms involved in dealing with them) are not necessary for producing phenomenal consciousness. The dreaming brain furthermore provides us with insights into the internal biological mechanisms that are entirely sufficient by themselves for supporting the phenomenal level. During REM sleep, the level of general activation in the brain is similar to that during wakefulness.

The evidence gathered concerning the location of consciousness in the physical world now seems definite: the entire sphere of phenomenal consciousness resides within the confines of the brain. It is ontologically dependent neither on the sensory input mechanisms leading to the brain, nor on the motor output mechanisms reaching out from the brain.

Our sensory-perceptual and bodily presence in the world is brought about by wholly internal neural mechanisms that work in a similar manner during wakefulness and dreaming. The experience of a seemingly external perceptual world and the experience of being personally embodied and situated in the center of the world are grand illusions brought about by the internal workings of the brain.

The above conclusion about the place of consciousness in the world is highly controversial in philosophy, where several lines of thought resist the idea that consciousness resides in the brain. Now the burden of proof is on the advocates of those views. Anyone who denies that consciousness is in the brain should come up with an alternative interpretation of the evidence provided by the dreaming brain. Furthermore, he should come up with a clear answer to the question, If consciousness is not located in the brain, where then is it to be found?"


(Revonsuo, Antti. Inner Presence: Consciousness as a Biological Phenomenon. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2006. pp. 97-8)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Felix
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul said: "When people undergo general anaesthesia, their consciousness is switched off and on again solely through the chemical manipulation of processes in their brains — which fact strongly suggests that consciousness results from physiochemical brain processes."

Self-awareness, not consciousness, is lost. Subliminal consciousness continues, and as far as we can tell, only death will result in a total loss of consciousness. People have reported being aware when they were physically unconscious or asleep. For example, surgical patients who were completely anesthetized were able to recount conversations that occurred in the operating room while they were unconscious.

Correlation is not causation. If you want to hear a particular radio show, you'll need a working radio that is tuned to the frequency on which the show is being broadcast; but the radio does not create either the show or the frequency, it merely receives them.
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Felix wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:28 pmConsul said: "When people undergo general anaesthesia, their consciousness is switched off and on again solely through the chemical manipulation of processes in their brains — which fact strongly suggests that consciousness results from physiochemical brain processes."

Self-awareness, not consciousness, is lost. Subliminal consciousness continues, and as far as we can tell, only death will result in a total loss of consciousness.
No, general anaesthesia does mean the total loss of consciousness (including self-consciousness). Of course, the brain and the nervous system are still subconsciously active during general anaesthesia, being capable of receiving and processing sensory signals without the presence of consciousness. So what you call "subliminal consciousness" is just the nonconscious perception (reception and registration) of sensory signals.
Felix wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:28 pmPeople have reported being aware when they were physically unconscious or asleep. For example, surgical patients who were completely anesthetized were able to recount conversations that occurred in the operating room while they were unconscious.
The patients having made such reports were either not really under general anaesthesia and hence not fully unconscious, or they were really under general anaesthesia, and their alleged memories are false, or true but falsely timed.

(A false memory is a pseudo-memory, a memorial fiction, the memorial counterpart of perceptual hallucination. A true memory of something is falsely timed when the subject falsely believes that what she recalls happened at time t or during the temporal interval T—when it actually happened at or during some earlier or later time.)
Felix wrote: June 18th, 2019, 5:28 pmCorrelation is not causation. If you want to hear a particular radio show, you'll need a working radio that is tuned to the frequency on which the show is being broadcast; but the radio does not create either the show or the frequency, it merely receives them.
If x and y are correlated, and you can always change y by manipulating x somehow—e.g. conscious processes by manipulating neural processes—, then this is strong evidence for causation.

"A commonsensical idea about causation is that causal relationships are relationships that are potentially exploitable for purposes of manipulation and control: very roughly, if C is genuinely a cause of E, then if I can manipulate C in the right way, this should be a way of manipulating or changing E."

Causation and Manipulability: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-mani/

Anyway, if you think the psychophysical correlations and the scientific (especially anaesthesiological) facts aren't best explained in terms of causation, which alternative explanation do you think is better?
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Felix
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul: "The patients having made such reports were either not really under general anaesthesia and hence not fully unconscious, or they were really under general anaesthesia, and their alleged memories are false, or true but falsely timed."

In the example I gave, I was speaking of cases in which the medical personnel confirmed the patient was unconscious and the conversation the patient recounted took place at that time (i.e., at the time the person was unconscious). Many such cases have been documented.

Consul: "If x and y are correlated, and you can always change y by manipulating x somehow—e.g. conscious processes by manipulating neural processes—, then this is strong evidence for causation."

Yes, and the point is that numerous cases have been documented in which manipulation of X (biochemistry) did not control Y (consciousness), which suggests that the relationship may not be a causal one.

Consul: "Anyway, if you think the psychophysical correlations and the scientific (especially anaesthesiological) facts aren't best explained in terms of causation, which alternative explanation do you think is better?"

I don't claim to know what the ultimate source of consciousness is, only that cases such as the one I mentioned create uncertainty as to whether it is an epiphenomenon of the brain.
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Felix wrote: June 19th, 2019, 3:01 am Consul: "The patients having made such reports were either not really under general anaesthesia and hence not fully unconscious, or they were really under general anaesthesia, and their alleged memories are false, or true but falsely timed."

In the example I gave, I was speaking of cases in which the medical personnel confirmed the patient was unconscious and the conversation the patient recounted took place at that time (i.e., at the time the person was unconscious). Many such cases have been documented.
Medical staff are unable to know whether or not a patient can hear during apparent unconsciousness.
In fact it is thought that patients who have comas can hear their relatives when they visit.
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Consul wrote: June 18th, 2019, 3:14 pm Moreover, dream research provides compelling evidence that the brain is the organ of consciousness, and that consciousness is realized in and by the brain.
The word 'organ' originally means 'instrument'. The brain, and the body in general, is the subject's instrument of existing in the material world, i.e. being conscious of the world. It is not wrong to say that consciousness arises from matter, because this is what happens functionally, but my ontological interpretation of the situation is such that everything happens to the subject. And what is the subject, you have asked. The subject is you and me and everybody who experiences something here and now. It is what you mean by the word 'I'. You can see your eye, but you cannot see your 'I'. It is transcendental. It does not belong to the world, it is behind the world, as a necessary reference point that you cannot get rid of in philosophy, although in science you can put it into “brackets” because there you can advance blindly and make new discoveries in the landscape you confront.

So your world looks the same as my world, but when you say that reality consists of matter, I say that reality consists of the subject's existence in the material world. Matter, consciousness and the subject, taken apart from this triadic structure, are mere abstractions, incapable of existing alone.
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Felix wrote: June 19th, 2019, 3:01 amConsul: "The patients having made such reports were either not really under general anaesthesia and hence not fully unconscious, or they were really under general anaesthesia, and their alleged memories are false, or true but falsely timed."

In the example I gave, I was speaking of cases in which the medical personnel confirmed the patient was unconscious and the conversation the patient recounted took place at that time (i.e., at the time the person was unconscious). Many such cases have been documented.

Consul: "If x and y are correlated, and you can always change y by manipulating x somehow—e.g. conscious processes by manipulating neural processes—, then this is strong evidence for causation."

Yes, and the point is that numerous cases have been documented in which manipulation of X (biochemistry) did not control Y (consciousness), which suggests that the relationship may not be a causal one.
Okay, you're right insofar as there is a rare medical phenomenon called anesthesia awareness that I didn't mention. Awareness/consciousness under general anesthesia occurs when the chemical substances used cause unconsciousness but don't sustain an uninterrupted period of unconsciousness.

However, this isn't evidence against the assumption that all conscious events are caused by neural events in the brain, since if the (individually) right drug and the (individually) right dosage of it are administered, there surely won't be any phases of consciousness during general anesthesia.

"Why does awareness occur?
The anesthetist simply administers ‘too little’ anesthesia - either deliberately (see paragraph below) to save the patient or by error.

Anesthesia may have significant effects on blood pressure and heart function. These effects can be much more in cases of patients with severe underlying medical conditions - especially those affecting the heart, circulation and lungs. These effects can also be much more in cases of patients that suffered severe injuries or severe bleeding. In these patients the anesthesiology focus is save the life during the surgery. In these cases the ‘amount of anesthesia’ may needs to be reduced. This increases the risk of awareness under general anesthesia.
Medications errors (wrong drug or wrong dose) or equipment malfunction can lead to awareness.

Another explanation is that the patient does not respond in the normal way and seems more resistant (called ‘tolerance’ in medical terms) to anesthetic medications. This can be due to other medications used (like benzodiazepines) or alcohol and cocaine abuse. A small group of patients may have an inborn resistance. Research on this patient subset is currently underway. At present there is no way or detecting these patients."

Felix wrote: June 19th, 2019, 3:01 amConsul: "Anyway, if you think the psychophysical correlations and the scientific (especially anaesthesiological) facts aren't best explained in terms of causation, which alternative explanation do you think is better?"

I don't claim to know what the ultimate source of consciousness is, only that cases such as the one I mentioned create uncertainty as to whether it is an epiphenomenon of the brain.
To say that experiential events are caused by neural events is not to say that the former are epiphenomenal, because there may be "downward causation" too, in the sense that experiential events can be causes of neural events (different from those which are their causes).

In 2019 there is no good reason not to believe that the brain (and no other kind of thing in the world) is the organ, the seat and source of consciousness. Contemporary scientists really cannot be blamed for not taking alternative assumptions seriously anymore.
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Consul
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Re: Materialism is absurd

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Sculptor1 wrote: June 19th, 2019, 3:48 amIn fact it is thought that patients who have comas can hear their relatives when they visit.
The Oxford Dictionary of Psychology (4th ed., 2015) defines "coma" as "a state of deep unconsciousness and absence of responses to external and internal stimuli". So there's no such thing as coma consciousness, and comatose patients don't consciously hear anything (by having subjective auditory sensations). But there are other kinds of extreme brain states where (minimal or more-than-minimal) consciousness may be or is present:

COMA –> VS (VEGETATIVE STATE) —> MCS (MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS STATE) —> MCS+ —> CONFUSIONAL STATE —> LOCKED-IN STATE

See: Coma and consciousness: Paradigms (re)framed by neuroimaging (PDF)
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