How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Papus79 wrote: October 13th, 2019, 6:14 pm You have a dream in a given month of something that hasn't happened, and a particular element of that dream is exorbitantly overemphasized (jarringly so).

Within a month you tell people about that dream because it was that weird.

Three months after that dream the exact thing, the jarring element, you dreamt about happens.

[...]

My question are there any other relatively mainstream or only sort-of-outside interpretations of space and time that could handle the load of such things?
First, I'm sorry I'm arriving so late to this party; I must've missed this topic when it first appeared. 😊

When I was 15, I knew everything, as all teenagers do. 😉 In the following 50 years, I gained a little wisdom and understanding, and learned that what I know is very modest indeed. Perhaps the main thing I learned is that there is no certainty - an expansion of this sentiment belongs in a separate topic - and it follows from this that many things are possible, and the world is a place of mystery and delight.

Premonitions are an example of these mysteries. Surely there might be a 'rational explanation', and perhaps the most obvious of these is that a premonition is a simple mistake or misrembering, as you observe. But I would hesitate to leave it there. Telepathy is plausible, I think, whether or not we can 'prove' it. Temporal perception might be possible too. The possible explanations are limited only by our imaginations. And I think this is one of those topics where there is no clear way to prove or disprove anything, so speculation is the order of the day, and all we have to do is to remember that the gap between speculation and proper knowledge is pretty big.... 🙂

Just my 2 pennyworth. 🙂
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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NickGaspar wrote: October 25th, 2019, 3:43 pm Should we accept unfalsifiable ideas based on intuition on face value, Yes or No?
No. But, by the same reasoning, we shouldn't reject "unfalsifiable ideas based on intuition on face value" either. Without conclusive evidence, we should reserve judgement.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 10:40 am Premonitions are an example of these mysteries. Surely there might be a 'rational explanation', and perhaps the most obvious of these is that a premonition is a simple mistake or misrembering, as you observe. But I would hesitate to leave it there. Telepathy is plausible, I think, whether or not we can 'prove' it. Temporal perception might be possible too. The possible explanations are limited only by our imaginations. And I think this is one of those topics where there is no clear way to prove or disprove anything, so speculation is the order of the day, and all we have to do is to remember that the gap between speculation and proper knowledge is pretty big.... 🙂
A couple things I'll add:

I think the first thing above points at a couple dynamics that are at loggerheads. The first dynamic is the belief that the current state of physical science as squashed all 'spooks', that all they ever were were just primitive anthropology and or a plug in for lack of science, and the pushiness of certain western religions both switch people off and cause them to bundle them all together as 'Science has killed magic, spooks, and the belief in the paranormal and you disagree it must be because you want to believe whatever you do more than you want to know the truth'. On the other side of this you have people who can say 'Yeah that's great but - I've had to sit with experiences you haven't which upturn that apple-cart' and unfortunately for those people there's nothing they can bring to the outside world directly to triangulate in order to explain what it is they think they saw in a way that doesn't get shoe-horned into mistaken identity, sloppy thinking, or crypto-religiosity.

This is part of why I beat on the political angle when explaining what I think is happening here. Looking at politics here in the US, which seems to be now an expansion of the stuff that was happening at Evergreen, Bret Weinstein actually said something quite concise that I can't find at the moment and am likely paraphrasing badly - 'A small number of people lead witch hunts, a large number of people follow, and equally large number put their heads down and stay silent, and a small number of people have a way of becoming the next witches!'. The pattern we seem to have, either as a stochastic result or as something in our DNA, renders us generally dogmatic and I can see where it's highly likely that there would be members of a tribe who set their face against reality in some way, the tribe couldn't survive internal conflict, and so that person's views would be 'poison' and it could be that the person has terrible ideas that embrace naivety, it could also be that the person had great ideas but that it would have given them too much social power or would have remade that tribes structure in a way that no one would understand but them which would be equally dangerous.

I think the best way to get around the sociological hurdle though is look at mysteries in nature for some degree of support:

- Someone can damage crows nests while wearing a certain outfit or mask, several generations later they'll still remember this person and attack them. Building a nest is a good example of a phenotype, remembering a predator doesn't seem to fit that description well and needless to say - genes seem to be much more like generator functions, Robert Sapolsky's had lectures on bifurcation of nerves, blood vessels, bronchial tubes, etc. and a generator function would code for that not by folding the complete map up in DNA but setting parameters and letting those parameters unfold.

- It's been suggested that starling, when making their flying formations, react to movements of the flock faster than their visual centers could process the movement of other birds in order to imitate their movements.

- Jim Al Khalili gave a presentation on the suggestion that there is quantum biology involved in certain birds being able to gain information on where magnetic north is and use that as a tool for migration (something in the eye or optic nerve allows this).

- Ant colonies are haploid/diploid and there's some question as to whether some degree of their organization is based on chemical signals but it seems like there's a degree to which above three or four ants they seem to just know what to do even if their numbers have diminished significantly and old roles have vacated.

That last piece makes me think about how trillions of neurons come together to render 'us'.

I increasingly hear now mainstream philosophers of science talking about information, either almost or completely, joining energy as not getting destroyed in the universe. There's a 'no-hiding theorum' which suggests information goes into a sort of subspace.

A lot of this is making it sound like Rupert Sheldrake isn't as crazy as many in the 1980's biology may have lead us to believe, plenty heretical and dangerous no doubt but clearly looking at things that were valid mysteries and coming away with what are at least provisionally sensible interpretations. This is where I think we're going to find that our relationship with information in the world is much more complex than we would have expect it and that there is more to be encountered of varieties that we wouldn't have expected.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Apologies, that 'couple' expanded quite a bit.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Papus79 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 11:20 am 'A small number of people lead witch hunts, a large number of people follow, and equally large number put their heads down and stay silent, and a small number of people have a way of becoming the next witches!'.
Yes, many of us choose not to pursue "nonsense", while a few are more open to new discoveries, despite the number of false trails and blind alleys they encounter on the way.

Nice to see a mention of Sheldrake, by the way. 👍
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:16 pm Yes, many of us choose not to pursue "nonsense", while a few are more open to new discoveries, despite the number of false trails and blind alleys they encounter on the way.
Social cohesion is indeed an expensive enterprise.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Papus79 wrote: October 13th, 2019, 6:14 pmMy question are there any other relatively mainstream or only sort-of-outside interpretations of space and time that could handle the load of such things? I'd prefer to stick to ontologies and structures here because when people get into claims of the paranormal or supernatural that's really an argument/debate about provisionally occluded and intensely disputed content and while content can be interesting or useful to know about in sizing up its container it's still not a description of the container.
A very interesting question and I did not yet find an answer.

I just read the post The Amazing Reality of Dream Precognition by science journalist and anthropologist Eric Wargo (Washington DC). It shows some examples of precognitive dreams. He also wrote a book on the subject.

When perception of the future is possible, what would it imply about time? I've read that some people experienced accurate precognitive dreams decades into the future.

Did you find an answer to your question? If so, what kind of philosophical concept for space and time would support such a phenomenon?
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Felix wrote: October 15th, 2019, 11:36 am I avoid jumping to conclusions about such things. I can only speak of my personal experiences, a few of which I have mentioned here in the forum. My impression is that so-called extrasensory perception is a natural human ability that was once much more common than it is these days, due to our modern educational system and child rearing practice, which tend to disparage development of such "impractical" abilities.
Do you believe that it is important that the reality of such a phenomenon is addressed by philosophy?

The possibility of perceiving decades into the future - accurately and undeniably - or clear remote viewing experiences (vision across vast distances) may indicate a potential that is of vital importance for the future of humanity.

Principled rejection of the possibility could be harmful. At least from a philosophical perspective, it seems that it should be considered and explored with urgency.

International Remote Viewing Association | IRVA
IRVA is a non-profit, 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to promoting the responsible use and development of remote viewing.
https://www.irva.org/

I have had some remote viewing experiences myself and the vision that it entails can in some cases be compared with regular vision or even more clear from a certain perspective.

An example is a vision of a whole situation and space involving +40 people in which those people and the meaning of their interaction instantly became known in a single vision, as if the meaning that could only be known to a certain person was transferred to produce a coherent 'large' vision that was perceived as 'extra clear' in comparison with regular eye vision, as if it contained more information than usual vision (e.g. all the people and their whereabouts became known 'at once', naturally).

NDE (near death experience) consciousness research may provide evidence of the possibility as well since it also involves experience at a distance during brain flat line.

(2019) Does Consciousness Continue After Brain Flat-line?
How can people brought back from death after cardiac arrest report having experienced lucid and vivid memories and recollections without a functioning brain? The study of near-death experiences is challenging the idea our consciousness originates in the brain.
https://www.sca-aware.org/sca-news/life ... eart-stops

The AWARE—AWAreness during REsuscitation study by Sam Parnia, director of the Human Consciousness Project at the University of Southampton provides evidence that consciousness is independent from the brain and that some people with brain flat line experience remote viewing.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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psyreporter wrote: June 8th, 2022, 11:58 am I just read the post The Amazing Reality of Dream Precognition by science journalist and anthropologist Eric Wargo (Washington DC). It shows some examples of precognitive dreams. He also wrote a book on the subject.

When perception of the future is possible, what would it imply about time? I've read that some people experienced accurate precognitive dreams decades into the future.
Ty. I do remember Wargo's work being out there, I can't remember where I heard his name brought up last but I think it was most likely from a New Thinking Allowed interview.
psyreporter wrote: June 8th, 2022, 11:58 amDid you find an answer to your question? If so, what kind of philosophical concept for space and time would support such a phenomenon?
The clearest answer I could think of when I originally wrote this post was eternal block universe (ie. Minkowski space). We got to a point early in the thread where we figured out that it could only work in a long-term sense if this were the case.

I also keep seeing NDE'ers talking about things as if the fundamental thing they're trying to explain is that their experience is of a much different sort of non-temporal kind of gradient were all of time is concurrent and the distances and 'events' are measured in a radically different manner. That seems to heap on at least circumstantial evidence to the speculation of Minkowski block universe or 'b time' as some people here have been calling it. Not everyone likes it of course so it's acceptance or rejection seems to come down to temperament (on the non-materialist side that would also include Time Freke lol, nice guy but hyperdeterminism of that sort is one of his buttons).
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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I recently posted a decently written post on Space.com to suggest the idea that ESP might be used for planet hunting and advancements in Cosmology (copy on a forum of Cambridge University).

The post was instantly deleted and my account was banned.

The post cited the film Third Eye Spies (2019, free copy on YouTube). As of February 2022 the website thirdeyespies.com was deleted and shows a questionable (mocking) image.

A bit earlier, in June 2021, there was another incident. A decent written post about the fact that the Big Bang theory is considered a religion by an increasing amount of scientists that received several serious replies, was deleted for questionable motives.

Topics are normally ‘closed’ and remain readable but the moderator deleted the topic.

"This thread has runs its course. Thank you to those who contributed. Closing now."

Science resorts to suppression which is a form of corruption.

The ban on Space.com was not an incident.

third-eye-spies-200w.jpg
third-eye-spies-200w.jpg (25.62 KiB) Viewed 916 times

A director of a CIA program at Stanford Research Institute (SRI) in Menlo Park, California mentioned the following:
CIA director wrote:In my experience and according to most other researchers, it appears that an experienced psychic can answer any question that has an answer. I cannot wait to see what the future holds when we fully open the doors of our perception! It is time to accept the gift of psychic abilities. The hardware is fine; it’s the software that must be upgraded—and quickly.
If the CIA director is correct, it might imply that ESP could be of value for philosophical enquiry. Principled rejection of the possibility seems to hold back progress that might be vital.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Confirmation bias and credulity aren't science. When someone says something like 'subconscious is woo', they're not engaging in science. A guy recently told me to go watch a video about a Turkish perpetual motion machine based on magnets - also not science.

I think I'm properly understanding that most people are here to cornhole each other, either over status or just because there's f-all else to do based on their cognitive and creative capacities, and consequently you just get tribes because actual thinking or giving concise answers as to what's wrong with an idea is not only a bit of effort (if they hadn't thought about it already - which I find strange when people haven't entertained all sorts of counterfactuals) but it's more fun to just grab the back of someone's boxers and raise them up the flag pole.

For attempts to do remote viewing on other planets - the degree to which I've already heard people like Ingo Swan interviewed on this topic it sounds like the data is messy and it needs a lot of confirmation, can at best perhaps guide hypothesis for those willing to take bird-dogging from remote viewers and put their observations to scientific scrutiny to see if they pan out. The trouble for the remote viewers is that it's hard to filter things out categorically, ie. they're almost never going to just see pristine spaces as in a long-distance physical image of what they're trying to look at from far away, there's a lot of artifacting in this process and we'd have to know way more about what that artifacting is before we could get very far as either straining it back out or understanding exactly what it's telling us (and if we're in something like Hoffman's social network of conscious agents I'd figure in many cases it can be anything from getting personal subconscious interference out to getting 'too much' of other non-physical layers not being weeded out).
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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Papus79 wrote: June 8th, 2022, 1:20 pmFor attempts to do remote viewing on other planets - the degree to which I've already heard people like Ingo Swan interviewed on this topic it sounds like the data is messy and it needs a lot of confirmation, can at best perhaps guide hypothesis for those willing to take bird-dogging from remote viewers and put their observations to scientific scrutiny to see if they pan out.
Perhaps it requires pioneering. When people with advanced cosmological knowledge and theorizing capacity would perform remote viewing they might see clues that would otherwise go unnoticed. That is of course when remote viewing across the Universe is possible.

There is an indication that life on earth may be tied to Solar-neutrino energy from the 🌞 Sun. On Earth, life is bathing in a continuous stream of Solar-neutrino energy at all times, including after sunset and on the dark side of Earth.

When Solar-neutrino energy is a 'topical' source of life on Earth, it might explain ESP on Earth but it might imply that ESP on a cosmic scale is not possible.

In a Supernovae explosion, 99% of a stars energy is released into the Universe in the form of neutrinos. A recent study showed a link between Supernovae and an explosion of life forms on Earth.

(2022) Supernovae and life on Earth appear closely connected
A remarkable link between the number of nearby exploding stars, called supernovae, and life on Earth has been discovered.
https://phys.org/news/2022-01-supernova ... earth.html

I did notice reports from people who described lucid visions of alien civilizations. So perhaps ESP on cosmic scale is possible and while Solar-neutrino energy might be a physical source of life on Earth, that would not imply anything with regard the potential for ESP on cosmic scale.

Papus79 wrote: June 8th, 2022, 1:20 pmThe trouble for the remote viewers is that it's hard to filter things out categorically, ie. they're almost never going to just see pristine spaces as in a long-distance physical image of what they're trying to look at from far away, there's a lot of artifacting in this process and we'd have to know way more about what that artifacting is before we could get very far as either straining it back out or understanding exactly what it's telling us (and if we're in something like Hoffman's social network of conscious agents I'd figure in many cases it can be anything from getting personal subconscious interference out to getting 'too much' of other non-physical layers not being weeded out).
The difference with regular vision is that the source of a paranormal vision merely consists of meaning. With regular vision the brain translates sensory perception into a meaningful vision. With paranormal vision, I suspect that the same occurs based on a source of meaning only.

The perceiver will need the capacity to parse the meaning so that would explain that it would be difficult for a remote viewer to extract exact visuals from aspects that he/she has never seen in his/her life.

With the use of remote viewing to find clues for a location of alien civilizations, it might be even more difficult to extract useful information. It may require innovative minds with a high capacity cosmological knowledge background that would take remote viewing serious for professional purposes.

Suggestion for a solution: bring together remote viewing specialists with experts in fields such as cosmology to discover new ways for advancement in those fields.
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Re: How many philosophies can handle premonition?

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^^ The thing that's really brutal about making progress in this sense would be that this is largely akin to athletic prowess, which has it's own hard limits even with the greatest. The only thing I could really see aiding this would be cybernetics / transhumanism if we find ways to augment human intelligence and cognitive horsepower to such a degree that we can leverage a lot more resources than just our own neural circuits.

Something I'm getting to think about and it's a bit of a side tangent, I don't know what your level of familiarity is with Jason Reza Jorjani but if you aren't familiar with him - his Prometheus and Atlas is a pretty good read (he has a lot of Youtube interviews and discussions on current events as well including all the angles he can think of regarding UAP's). He's been talking about the singularity and the 'spectral revolution' being something that would happen simultaneously as our approach to the singularity would necessarily break reductive materialism as we ran into technological problems that would force us in this direction.
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