Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Felix
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Felix »

Leibniz1699: This means that logically existence cannot have a reason or purpose for existing because this would lead to the question of why which leads back to infinite regress.
Irrelevant, science is concerned with how things happen, not why they happen.
Leibniz1699: Because there is no reason or purpose for anything that means that existence as a whole is completely free and unbounded.
That's a facetious assumption, if it were actually true, you could neither compose nor type that sentence.
Leibniz1699: Art is ultimately purposeless creation just like existence itself.
LOL, show me an artist who does not care at all if anyone ever sees or hears his work.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Leibniz1699
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Felix wrote: November 26th, 2019, 4:05 pm
Leibniz1699: This means that logically existence cannot have a reason or purpose for existing because this would lead to the question of why which leads back to infinite regress.
Irrelevant, science is concerned with how things happen, not why they happen.
Leibniz1699: Because there is no reason or purpose for anything that means that existence as a whole is completely free and unbounded.
That's a facetious assumption, if it were actually true, you could neither compose nor type that sentence.
Leibniz1699: Art is ultimately purposeless creation just like existence itself.
LOL, show me an artist who does not care at all if anyone ever sees or hears his work.
You are correct about science concerning how things happen but philosophy deals with why and how to go about answering the question of why.

Because existence as a whole is unlimited and free anything can happen including apparently stable systems with consistent physical laws such as our visible universe. There is no contradiction.

Many artists like to show off their art you are right but I am referring to it being a hobby that is done for personal fulfillment and entertainment.
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Felix
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

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Leibniz1699: You are correct about science concerning how things happen but philosophy deals with why and how to go about answering the question of why.
But you didn't do that, you just stated an opinion and gave no philosophical argument to support it - which is why Sculptor1 called your statement a tautology.
Leibniz1699: Because existence as a whole is unlimited and free anything can happen including apparently stable systems with consistent physical laws such as our visible universe.
That's pure speculation since we mortal beings are incapable of knowing the nature of "existence as a whole." Our existence is obviously not unlimited and free.
Leibniz1699: Many artists like to show off their art you are right but I am referring to it being a hobby that is done for personal fulfillment and entertainment.
I don't know anyone who would consider personal fullfillment/entertainment to be random, nonpurposeful actions. If Existence is purposeless, it certainly doesn't show.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Atla
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Atla »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 25th, 2019, 11:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: November 25th, 2019, 2:47 pm Basically, you're going with the "things just noncausally 'popped' into existence (for no reason)," which you can do, of course, as that's one of the two options available, but like the other option--that something always existed--it's counterintuitive.
Essentially yes. Reality itself is just whatever it is and there is no underlying narrative or fundamental nature to it - there logically cannot be. Everything ultimately is just random and without reason at the grandest scale. Even the natural patterns and physical laws we are familiar with are just consistencies which themselves are either the product of random chance or part of a larger system which is itself chaotic and unordered when looked at from a higher level.

Reality itself should be viewed as the eternal default axiom existing nowhere and nowhen - without reason or cause because location, time, reason or anything else conceivable and/or inconceivable happen or can happen 'inside' it. I like to think of existence as a spontaneously random absurdist theatre production happening on the 'stage' of eternity which has been mistakenly assigned a metaphysical purpose or narrative by the audience due to the illusion of profundity which are just empty unconscious theatrical acts.

Everything comes from nowhere and is going nowhere including 'thingness' itself and it isnt even happening anywhere at all to begin with. No destiny or purpose just the absolute metaphysical freedom of eternity.
Isn't it the simpler view that anything that can potentially exist, does exist? And that's ultimately deterministic too.
Things don't even pop into existence, there is just infinite timeless existence.
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Atla wrote: November 27th, 2019, 6:59 am
Leibniz1699 wrote: November 25th, 2019, 11:32 pm

Essentially yes. Reality itself is just whatever it is and there is no underlying narrative or fundamental nature to it - there logically cannot be. Everything ultimately is just random and without reason at the grandest scale. Even the natural patterns and physical laws we are familiar with are just consistencies which themselves are either the product of random chance or part of a larger system which is itself chaotic and unordered when looked at from a higher level.

Reality itself should be viewed as the eternal default axiom existing nowhere and nowhen - without reason or cause because location, time, reason or anything else conceivable and/or inconceivable happen or can happen 'inside' it. I like to think of existence as a spontaneously random absurdist theatre production happening on the 'stage' of eternity which has been mistakenly assigned a metaphysical purpose or narrative by the audience due to the illusion of profundity which are just empty unconscious theatrical acts.

Everything comes from nowhere and is going nowhere including 'thingness' itself and it isnt even happening anywhere at all to begin with. No destiny or purpose just the absolute metaphysical freedom of eternity.
Isn't it the simpler view that anything that can potentially exist, does exist? And that's ultimately deterministic too.
Things don't even pop into existence, there is just infinite timeless existence.
The sum of all parts as a whole must logically be free because it is not influenced by any causal chain as any causal chains themselves exist within the sum/i]. Humans, animals, and things within existence on the other hand exist in relation to their surroundings and are therefore unduly influenced by them (Determinism). On the other hand nature as a whole exists in relation to nothing and therefore is not influenced by external forces as it is itself the ultimate external force. Ultimate Nature's determinations are themselves not determined by anything.
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Apologies for the all italics something went wrong.
Atla
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Atla »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 27th, 2019, 8:24 am The sum of all parts as a whole must logically be free because it is not influenced by any causal chain as any causal chains themselves exist within the sum. Humans, animals, and things within existence on the other hand exist in relation to their surroundings and are therefore unduly influenced by them (Determinism). On the other hand nature as a whole exists in relation to nothing and therefore is not influenced by external forces as it is itself the ultimate external force. Ultimate Nature's determinations are themselves not determined by anything.
Not determined by anything external (as there is no external) doesn't mean that it can't be deterministic in itself.
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Atla
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Atla »

Leibniz1699 wrote: November 27th, 2019, 8:24 am The sum of all parts as a whole must logically be free because it is not influenced by any causal chain as any causal chains themselves exist within the sum. Humans, animals, and things within existence on the other hand exist in relation to their surroundings and are therefore unduly influenced by them (Determinism). On the other hand nature as a whole exists in relation to nothing and therefore is not influenced by external forces as it is itself the ultimate external force. Ultimate Nature's determinations are themselves not determined by anything.
But maybe it would be most correct to say that the Ultimate Nature is beyond freedom and determinism. It's where the two converge in the middle, we can kinda view it either way.
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Atla wrote: November 27th, 2019, 8:55 am
Leibniz1699 wrote: November 27th, 2019, 8:24 am The sum of all parts as a whole must logically be free because it is not influenced by any causal chain as any causal chains themselves exist within the sum. Humans, animals, and things within existence on the other hand exist in relation to their surroundings and are therefore unduly influenced by them (Determinism). On the other hand nature as a whole exists in relation to nothing and therefore is not influenced by external forces as it is itself the ultimate external force. Ultimate Nature's determinations are themselves not determined by anything.
But maybe it would be most correct to say that the Ultimate Nature is beyond freedom and determinism. It's where the two converge in the middle, we can kinda view it either way.
I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence. Determinism on the other hand is just the dynamic of an existing thing existing in relation to another existing thing like in geometry where everything is related to and relying on something else.
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Felix
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

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Leibniz1699: I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence.
We can't avoid being anthropomorphic, order and chaos are human concepts, and from our perspective, order cannot come from chaos anymore than something can come from nothing. Although such is possible it's unlikely to the point of being nonsensical. Therefore, it's reasonable to posit some sort of primal order rather than a formless void.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Felix wrote: November 27th, 2019, 4:46 pm
Leibniz1699: I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence.
We can't avoid being anthropomorphic, order and chaos are human concepts, and from our perspective, order cannot come from chaos anymore than something can come from nothing. Although such is possible it's unlikely to the point of being nonsensical. Therefore, it's reasonable to posit some sort of primal order rather than a formless void.
Felix wrote: November 27th, 2019, 4:46 pm
Leibniz1699: I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence.
We can't avoid being anthropomorphic, order and chaos are human concepts, and from our perspective, order cannot come from chaos anymore than something can come from nothing. Although such is possible it's unlikely to the point of being nonsensical. Therefore, it's reasonable to posit some sort of primal order rather than a formless void.
When I discuss existence as a whole I am referring to literally everything not just matter, energy, and spacetime. Qualities, patterns, apparent physical laws, dimensions, realms, abstractions, qualia, processes and anything thing else are also included in the complete definition of existence.

Any answer that points to another thing as the reason or cause of these things would just be another thing and therefore cannot logically be the answer as the question was why do all these things exist in the first place and in the
Felix wrote: November 27th, 2019, 4:46 pm
Leibniz1699: I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence.
We can't avoid being anthropomorphic, order and chaos are human concepts, and from our perspective, order cannot come from chaos anymore than something can come from nothing. Although such is possible it's unlikely to the point of being nonsensical. Therefore, it's reasonable to posit some sort of primal order rather than a formless void.
When I discuss existence as a whole I am referring to literally everything not just matter, energy, space, and time. Qualities, patterns, apparent physical laws, dimensions, realms, abstractions, qualia, processes and anything else are also included in the complete definition of existence.

Any answer that points to another thing as the reason or cause of these things would just be another thing and therefore cannot logically be the answer as the question was why do all these things exist in the first place and in the particular way they do. The answer must logically be that there is no answer and that literally is the answer. This means that all existence just exists the way it does for no reason and has no cause for doing what it does.

Ultimate ensemble theories whether they are String Theory or Yahweh and beyond (even if proven true) cannot logically be the ultimate answer as again they are just mere things regardless of how grandiose or awe inspiring they may seem. All of these things would also be empty manifestations from nowhere without any metanarrative or ultimate nature as they would just be more things. Because existence is an eternal brute fact its behavior as a whole is statistically random and indeterminate due to there being no backdoor external factors pulling the strings.

Actualized reality is an infinitesimal slice out of an eternal superposition of infinitely many potential states all statistically equal to each other in probability. This superposition isn't even a thing proper but rather a way to logically conceptualize the brute fact of ex nihilo into something comprehendable.
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

Apologies again for the duplicate.
Atla
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

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Leibniz1699 wrote: November 27th, 2019, 9:45 am I just feel that the conventional notion of freedom is incorrect and based on Anthropomorphism. Purely free actions must have no cause or reason. They must be purely random and spontaneous without external influence. Determinism on the other hand is just the dynamic of an existing thing existing in relation to another existing thing like in geometry where everything is related to and relying on something else.
I think determinism here more like means that there may be some kind of absolute order, it's not about having anything external to relate it to. (There is also nothing external to be free from, to be random compared to.)
So ultimate nature can be 'free' and 'deterministic' at the same time.
eternal superposition of infinitely many potential states all statistically equal to each other in probability.
I consider this to be a little known, but totally game-changer question of philosophy. Are those states within the infinite superposition really statistically equal? My answer is: probably no.

For example consider two states: a universe made of one particle-pair, and a universe made of two-particle pairs. Doesn't the former one occur at least twice as often within the infinite superposition, than the latter one?
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Leibniz1699 »

eternal superposition of infinitely many potential states all statistically equal to each other in probability.
I consider this to be a little known, but totally game-changer question of philosophy. Are those states within the infinite superposition really statistically equal? My answer is: probably no.

For example consider two states: a universe made of one particle-pair, and a universe made of two-particle pairs. Doesn't the former one occur at least twice as often within the infinite superposition, than the latter one?
[/quote]

Each potential reality state - the one set with one particle and the one set with two particles would each be their own specific individual probabilities. The draw of which is random so each probability is equal.
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Felix
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Re: Pure Potentiality as the source of all existence

Post by Felix »

Leibniz1699: When I discuss existence as a whole I am referring to literally everything not just matter, energy, space, and time. Qualities, patterns, apparent physical laws, dimensions, realms, abstractions, qualia, processes and anything else are also included in the complete definition of existence. Any answer that points to another thing as the reason or cause of these things would just be another thing and therefore cannot logically be the answer as the question was why do all these things exist in the first place and in the particular way they do.
You're still conflating How theories of science or metaphysics with Why theories of reality, the two are apples and oranges. Material things do not exist in a vacuum, they are products of the material processes that gave rise to them. It is nonsensical to suggest that those processes are irrelevant, that reality need not be constrained by any physical laws and can assume any possible form, when everything we know says otherwise.
Leibniz1699: The answer must logically be that there is no answer and that literally is the answer. This means that all existence just exists the way it does for no reason and has no cause for doing what it does.
Sorry but that's no answer, it's an empty platitude.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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