Perception and reality

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote:Perceiving" is a way of saying "having a perception,"...
Yes, much like "dreaming" is a way of saying "having a dream". A "dream" and a "perception" are synonymous in this respect.

The "dreaming" (the "having-of-a-dream") is one thing; the activity.
The "dream" is another thing; the object of the activity.

The "perceiving" (the "having-of-a-perception") is one thing; the activity.
The "perception" is another thing; the object of the activity.

You can't "perceive" if there is no 'something' to perceive, ...right?...isn't this "something" the "perception" that we perceive?

Terrapin Station wrote:...or in other words it's simply a way of actively referring to a perception. It's stressing the activity of perception.
Not so. It's stressing the activity of "we", the subject. "Perceptions" and "dreams" don't act. "We" (subjects) act.

RJG wrote:Perceptions ARE the "somethings" that we are conscious of.
Consul wrote:No, (extrospective) perceptual consciousness doesn't require (introspective) perceptual consciousness of (extrospective) perceptual consciousness.
It seems that (when you use plain English and "cut-to-the chase") you are simply saying that we can be conscious of something that we are not conscious of. ...yes?

The "consciousness-of-X" is one thing; the activity.
The "X" is another thing; the object of the activity.
TWO different things.
...agreed?

You can't be "conscious-of-something" if there is no 'something' to be conscious of, ...right?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 8:55 am "Dreaming" (the "having-of-a-dream") is one thing; the activity.
"Dream" is another thing; the object of the activity.

"Perceiving" (the "having-of-a-perception") is one thing; the activity.
"Perception" is another thing; the object of the activity.
No, a dream isn't the "object of dreaming" and a perception isn't the "object of perceiving."

The object of a dream is something like "standing in front of the classroom naked," and the object of a perception is something like "the tree in the front yard."
You can't "perceive" if there is no 'something' to perceive, ...right?
Right and what you perceive are things like other people and trees and buildings and rivers etc. Those things aren't themselves perceptions. They're objects (and processes and so on) that you perceive.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote:The object of a dream is something like "standing in front of the classroom naked," and the object of a perception is something like "the tree in the front yard."
It seems that you are saying - "We don't perceive 'perceptions', we only perceive the 'objects' that make up the perception".

This is like saying - "We don't sing 'songs', we only sing 'words' that make up the song".

RJG wrote:You can't "perceive" if there is no 'something' to perceive, ...right?
Terrapin Station wrote:Right and what you perceive are things like other people and trees and buildings and rivers etc. Those things aren't themselves perceptions. They're objects (and processes and so on) that you perceive.
And what do you call this group of objects? Don't you call them your "perception"?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 10:31 am
Terrapin Station wrote:The object of a dream is something like "standing in front of the classroom naked," and the object of a perception is something like "the tree in the front yard."
It seems that you are saying - "We don't perceive 'perceptions', we only perceive the 'objects' that make up the perception".
Right. We don't perceive perceptions. We perceive things like trees, etc.

It's like photography. We don't photograph photographs (not normally at any rate). We photograph something like a tree.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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Perceptions are relational. They only obtain via relationships to something other than a perception. Just like photography is relational, painting (at least when not strictly formalist) is relational (including when we're talking about say, painting a house), journalism is relational, etc.

Not everything we can do is relational in this way, even if tasks require relations to realize. For example, running isn't relational.

The distinction is akin to a transitive/intransitive distinction. Relational activities require or at least imply an object a la a perception OF ____ or journalism ABOUT ____. So those activities are transitive.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote:It seems that you are saying - "We don't perceive 'perceptions', we only perceive the 'objects' that make up the perception".
Terrapin Station wrote:Right. We don't perceive perceptions. We perceive things like trees, etc.
So then -- we don't sing 'songs' either? (...we only sing the 'words' that make up the song?)
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 11:43 am
RJG wrote:It seems that you are saying - "We don't perceive 'perceptions', we only perceive the 'objects' that make up the perception".
Terrapin Station wrote:Right. We don't perceive perceptions. We perceive things like trees, etc.
So then -- we don't sing 'songs' either? (...we only sing the 'words' that make up the song?)
Are you thinking that if one thing is transitive, then everything must be?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 11:43 am
When we run, what would you say we run?

(language, how does it work?)
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote:It's like photography. We don't photograph photographs (not normally at any rate).
We photograph 'pictures'. If trees are in that picture, then the "trees" are part of the "picture" that we photographed.
We perceive 'perceptions'. If trees are in that perception, then the "trees" are part of the "perception" that we perceived.
We dream 'dreams'. If trees are in that dream, then the "trees" are part of the "dream" that we dreamed.
We sing 'songs'. If trees are in that song, then the "trees" are part of the "song" that we sang.

Terrapin Station wrote:We photograph something like a tree.
No. We photograph 'pictures' whose 'contents' may consist of trees, trucks, or turtles.


*********
Terrapin Station wrote:When we run, what would you say we run?
It depends on context. We can run a race. We can run a machine. We can run an event. We can run ourselves crazy (thinking about philosophy). We can run 'something', but we can't run 'nothing'.
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Consul
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote: March 15th, 2020, 5:23 am
Consul wrote: March 15th, 2020, 5:03 amSo you use "perception" synonymously with "perceptual object" or "object of perceiving"?
Neither.
"perceptual object" and "object of perceiving" are synonyms.
Terrapin Station wrote: March 15th, 2020, 5:23 amProcess of perceiving. Perception is an activity you engage in.
Okay, so perception = perceiving. I'm using "perception" in this sense too. If it were used instead to refer to the perceived, i.e. what is perceived, the phrases "object of perception" and "content of perception" would be nonsensical. The object/content of perception = the object/content of perceiving.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 8:55 amThe "perceiving" (the "having-of-a-perception") is one thing; the activity.
The "perception" is another thing; the object of the activity.
In order to avoid misunderstanding and confusion, you shouldn't call the perveivED, the object of perceivING a perception, but the object of perception or perceptual object.
RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 8:55 am
Consul wrote:No, (extrospective) perceptual consciousness doesn't require (introspective) perceptual consciousness of (extrospective) perceptual consciousness.
It seems that (when you use plain English and "cut-to-the chase") you are simply saying that we can be conscious of something that we are not conscious of. ...yes?
No, what I'm simply saying is that you can be conscious/aware of something without also being conscious/aware of your being conscious/aware of something. First-order perceptual consciousness, i.e. extrospection, is different from and independent of second-order perceptual consciousness, i.e. introspection.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Consul wrote:No, what I'm simply saying is that you can be conscious/aware of something without also being conscious/aware of your being conscious/aware of something.
Yes, we can be conscious-of-something, but we can't be conscious of our (consciousness-of-something). ...correct?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: March 15th, 2020, 12:10 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:It's like photography. We don't photograph photographs (not normally at any rate).
We photograph 'pictures'.
No, you don't. Your photographing something creates a picture --that's what photographing IS. You're not photographing a picture, though. There would have to be a photograph that you're pointing the camera at for that.

You repeatedly come across like a retard (seriously) who doesn't even understand how language works. It's like I'm trying to explain things to someone who I don't expect to be able to the their own shoes. Which is pretty futile because you're not going to get it. You're a retard.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

"I don't expect to be able to tie their own shoes" that should have read.
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Consul
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 1:19 am
Consul wrote:No, what I'm simply saying is that you can be conscious/aware of something without also being conscious/aware of your being conscious/aware of something.
Yes, we can be conscious-of-something, but we can't be conscious of our (consciousness-of-something). ...correct?
No, we can be (but needn't be) introspectively/reflectively conscious/aware of our extrospective consciousness/awareness.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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