Perception and reality

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote:Your photographing something creates a picture --that's what photographing IS. You're not photographing a picture, though. There would have to be a photograph that you're pointing the camera at for that.
Of course not. I'm not referring to "picture" in that sense of the word. I'm referring it in the sense as the object of the action, e.g. of "taking (photographing) a picture".
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 10:17 am
Terrapin Station wrote:Your photographing something creates a picture --that's what photographing IS. You're not photographing a picture, though. There would have to be a photograph that you're pointing the camera at for that.
Of course not. I'm not referring to "picture" in that sense of the word. I'm referring it in the sense as the object of the action, e.g. of "taking (photographing) a picture".
The object of the action isn't a picture. You're perpetually confused.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote:Yes, we can be conscious-of-something, but we can't be conscious of our (consciousness-of-something). ...correct?
Consul wrote:No, we can be (but needn't be) introspectively/reflectively conscious/aware of our extrospective consciousness/awareness.
It seems that you are saying that we can be conscious of our consciousness, or that we can perceive our perceiving (i.e. an action/verb of an action/verb). If so, then this is incorrect, for it is logically and physically impossible to perceive one's own perceivings (actions).

Or maybe you mean:
  • introspectively/reflectively conscious/aware = current perceiving
    extrospective consciousness/awareness = past perceiving (aka perception)
And if so, then I agree with you, as this then equates to "we perceive our perceptions", as I've been saying all along.

We can naturally perceive a 'past' perceiving, but that "past perceiving" only exists as a memory (and not a current perceiving). We can only be conscious of, or perceive that which has already happened. If we perceive an action, then we are really just perceiving the memory (the perception) of that action, and not the action itself.

Time does not allow us to perceive perceivings (actions) directly. We can only perceive perceptions ("past perceivings"). All processes consume time, even the process of perceiving (recognizing, becoming aware/conscious) consume time. So by the time we perceive something, that which we perceive is really just a memory, and not an action (or a perceiving) itself.

Terrapin Station wrote:The object of the action isn't a picture.
Do you not understand the meaning of "taking a picture"? -- Is "taking" an action (verb)? And is the "picture" the object (noun) of this action?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 1:19 pm Do you not understand the meaning of "taking a picture"? -- Is "taking" an action (verb)? And is the "picture" the object (noun) of this action?
Of course the picture isn't the object of the action. The object of the action is what you take a picture of. You don't take a picture of a picture. Seriously, where did you learn English?
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote:Do you not understand the meaning of "taking a picture"? -- Is "taking" an action (verb)? And is the "picture" the object (noun) of this action?
Terrapin Station wrote:Of course the picture isn't the object of the action. The object of the action is what you take a picture of.
You are using (falsely equivocating) a different meaning of the word "object". Objects (in your meaning) are those things that are in the "picture".
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Consul
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Consul wrote:No, we can be (but needn't be) introspectively/reflectively conscious/aware of our extrospective consciousness/awareness.
It seems that you are saying that we can be conscious of our consciousness, or that we can perceive our perceiving (i.e. an action/verb of an action/verb). If so, then this is incorrect, for it is logically and physically impossible to perceive one's own perceivings (actions).

Or maybe you mean:
  • introspectively/reflectively conscious/aware = current perceiving
    extrospective consciousness/awareness = past perceiving (aka perception)
And if so, then I agree with you, as this then equates to "we perceive our perceptions", as I've been saying all along.

We can naturally perceive a 'past' perceiving, but that "past perceiving" only exists as a memory (and not a current perceiving). We can only be conscious of, or perceive that which has already happened. If we perceive an action, then we are really just perceiving the memory (the perception) of that action, and not the action itself.

Time does not allow us to perceive perceivings (actions) directly. We can only perceive perceptions ("past perceivings"). All processes consume time, even the process of perceiving (recognizing, becoming aware/conscious) consume time. So by the time we perceive something, that which we perceive is really just a memory, and not an action (or a perceiving) itself.
Consciousness of consciousness is mental self-consciousness, and—provided introspection is properly regarded as a kind of (nonsensory) perception—I can innerly perceive my perceptual experiences (and the sense-impressions they involve). The objects of introspective perception are the current, present experiential contents of my consciousness; and even if introspection is mixed with retrospection or recollection, it is still different from it, because the introspecting may well take place simultaneously with the introspected (perceptual) experience.

Extrospective perception (the sensory perception of external things or events) is different from retrospection or recollection too—despite the fact that e.g. when I see a star I don't see it as it is (now or simultaneously with my seeing it) but as it was many years ago. Nevertheless, seeing a star is different from recalling or remembering one's seeing a star.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 3:07 pm
RJG wrote:Do you not understand the meaning of "taking a picture"? -- Is "taking" an action (verb)? And is the "picture" the object (noun) of this action?
Terrapin Station wrote:Of course the picture isn't the object of the action. The object of the action is what you take a picture of.
You are using (falsely equivocating) a different meaning of the word "object". Objects (in your meaning) are those things that are in the "picture".
What sense of the term are you using so that your comments wouldn't suggest that you simply don't understand English?
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Terrapin Station wrote:What sense of the term are you using so that your comments wouldn't suggest that you simply don't understand English?
Are you familiar with SVO (subject-verb-object)? You might want to look it up. It might help you better understand English.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 16th, 2020, 8:07 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:What sense of the term are you using so that your comments wouldn't suggest that you simply don't understand English?
Are you familiar with SVO (subject-verb-object)? You might want to look it up. It might help you better understand English.
Not that philosophy is "analysis of sentences I can construct" but you're apparently not familiar with "SVO" because the object of "taking a photograph" or "taking a picture" or "photographing" is not a photograph/a picture. Again, terms like "taking a photograph" or "perceiving" are effectively transitive. We need to say what we are photographing or perceiving. It's the answer to "photograph of" or "perception of." The answer to that "what" is the object.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

LOL the more I think about the fact that apparently you're thinking that the task you should be doing on a philosophy board is sixth grade sentence diagramming.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

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Cosul wrote:Consciousness of consciousness is mental self-consciousness, and—provided introspection is properly regarded as a kind of (nonsensory) perception—I can innerly perceive my perceptual experiences (and the sense-impressions they involve). The objects of introspective perception are the current, present experiential contents of my consciousness; and even if introspection is mixed with retrospection or recollection, it is still different from it, because the introspecting may well take place simultaneously with the introspected (perceptual) experience.
I don't see how this is at all possible. The 'contents' of perceptions must exist prior to our consciousness (or perceiving, sensing, detecting) of said contents.

It is physically impossible to sense, detect, perceive, etc anything 'instantaneously' or 'simultaneously' as it is happening. Sensing, detecting, perceiving are 'processes'. And ALL processes consume time. We can't know or perceive anything, including our own internal thoughts instantaneously. We must first 'recognize' them to 'know' we had them. Recognition is a process that doesn't, and can't, happen instantaneously.

When we perceive our inner perceptions they can only be 'past' experiences not 'present/current' ones, regardless of what we've read/or have been told. We can't do the impossible.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: March 17th, 2020, 8:47 am I don't see how this is at all possible. The 'contents' of perceptions must exist prior to our consciousness (or perceiving, sensing, detecting) of said contents.
You're looking at consciousness as if it's something other than brain processes.
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:You're looking at consciousness as if it's something other than brain processes.
Not so. Consciousness is a physical brain process. It is the process (memory/brain interaction) of 'recognition'.

Consciousness is the singular experience (bodily reaction) of 'recognition', made possible by 'memory'. It is this process of recognition that converts a non-conscious bodily experience into a conscious bodily experience.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Perception and reality

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RJG wrote: March 17th, 2020, 9:00 am
Terrapin Station wrote:You're looking at consciousness as if it's something other than brain processes.
Not so. Consciousness is a physical brain process. It is the process (memory/brain interaction) of 'recognition'.

Consciousness is the singular experience (bodily reaction) of 'recognition', made possible by 'memory'. It is this process of recognition that converts a non-conscious bodily experience into a conscious bodily experience.
You don't consider simple awareness to be consciousness?
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RJG
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Re: Perception and reality

Post by RJG »

Awareness is consciousness. Being aware of something is being conscious of something.
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