Well, there is a missing piece here, the current state. The current state is things as they are right now. The complete formulation is that the current state and its events are the prior causes of the next state and its events. I think you are referring to an effect which presents as a change in the state of things, without itself initiating a new event.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 11:24 amYou miss the point. Effects are consequences, in this example, I agree. But do effects have consequences? That was my question. You said before that effects become causes, and thereby have consequences conferred upon them, but it is not clear that all effects become causes in their own right. So some effects are meaningless, in your opinion? And maybe some other sorts/types of events too? I don't think defining meaning by consequences works very well. ... Not that I'm aware of a better way to define meaning, you understand.
What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Okay, but don't you think it's a bit odd per normal word usage to say that part of the meaning of a piece of music is to make someone deaf?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 11:34 amYeah. That would be a subjective consequence.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 9:42 am
On your view, part of the meaning of a piece of music, say, might be to make someone deaf (If the music is loud enough, for example)?
And we could say that the meaning of most pieces of music include to make people disgusted, to make people elated, etc.? (Since most music has that gamut of reactions from people--different people have different tastes)
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Good point. The meaning of a piece of music is not to make someone deaf. That consequence would be unintentional. I suppose that would be the meaning of the amplifier.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 1:58 pmOkay, but don't you think it's a bit odd per normal word usage to say that part of the meaning of a piece of music is to make someone deaf?
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Okay, but if we make meaning apply to only intentional consequences, then the only things that will have meaning are human actions.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 3:49 pmGood point. The meaning of a piece of music is not to make someone deaf. That consequence would be unintentional. I suppose that would be the meaning of the amplifier.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 1:58 pm
Okay, but don't you think it's a bit odd per normal word usage to say that part of the meaning of a piece of music is to make someone deaf?
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Hmm. Consequences are only relevant to living organisms. They are the only objects with "skin in the game". A volcano has meaning only because it has consequences to us. The music that makes someone deaf similarly has meaning only because of the consequences to us. Unintended consequences are just as meaningful as intentional ones.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 5:20 pmOkay, but if we make meaning apply to only intentional consequences, then the only things that will have meaning are human actions.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 3:49 pm
Good point. The meaning of a piece of music is not to make someone deaf. That consequence would be unintentional. I suppose that would be the meaning of the amplifier.
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Okay, but you just wrote, "The meaning of a piece of music is not to make someone deaf. That consequence would be unintentional."Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 7:32 pmHmm. Consequences are only relevant to living organisms. They are the only objects with "skin in the game". A volcano has meaning only because it has consequences to us. The music that makes someone deaf similarly has meaning only because of the consequences to us. Unintended consequences are just as meaningful as intentional ones.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 5:20 pm
Okay, but if we make meaning apply to only intentional consequences, then the only things that will have meaning are human actions.
--As if the consequence being unintentional implies that that's not part of the meaning.
And above you also seem now to be saying that meaning is only pertinent insofar as individuals care about it. Wouldn't that make all meaning subjective?
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Hmm. It appears that objectivity is subjective. We have subjective observations, which, when mutually confirmed by independent subjects, becomes scientific objectivity.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 7:38 pmOkay, but you just wrote, "The meaning of a piece of music is not to make someone deaf. That consequence would be unintentional."Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 7:32 pm
Hmm. Consequences are only relevant to living organisms. They are the only objects with "skin in the game". A volcano has meaning only because it has consequences to us. The music that makes someone deaf similarly has meaning only because of the consequences to us. Unintended consequences are just as meaningful as intentional ones.
--As if the consequence being unintentional implies that that's not part of the meaning.
And above you also seem now to be saying that meaning is only pertinent insofar as individuals care about it. Wouldn't that make all meaning subjective?
So we have objectivity:
(reality (subjects (objectivity=objective observations)))
Then we have subjectivity:
(reality (subjects (subjectivity=personal feelings and impressions)))
- figtree
- New Trial Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: May 5th, 2020, 10:49 pm
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Simmel observed that amerikan philosophy the most superficial pragmatism produced in the history of mankind---"truth is nowhere to be found" as James wrote
Adorno observed that amerikan describe a vulture capitalist as an entrepreneur....Lakoff wrote that only north amerikans transform money into time---amerikans waste, spend, budget, invest in time...and only n amerikans use a business term to refer to their lovers---Partner---r amerikans junior or silent partners
"the monolingual inevitably confuses style with content". George simmel
"amerikan radicals both black and white adopted radical style without any radical content". Christopher Lasch
Borges observed that the the Spanish word for nightmare, pesadilla, "is too cheerful"---he spoke 5 languages...it is not possible to accurately translate Russian words, nadryov, toscavat, Poshlost, etc into English
indeed Heidegger found that it was impossible to conduct metaphysical inquiry in the English language---no reflexivity...and it never has been done
As Hochschild and others write, "culture determines perceptions and expectations....Husserl, Wittgenstein, etc wrote that language directs consciousness...the incapacity to think dialectically reduces understanding to discreet disconnected facts---and everyone from Tocqueville, Gorer, Sennet, Lakoff etc observes that anglophones do not make connections---they particularize and decontextualize as Richard Sennet has recently written
"take parado away from a thinker and you have a professor". S Kierkegarrd
- Terrapin Station
- Posts: 6227
- Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
- Location: NYC Man
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
I am certainly referring to the possibility that some events have no consequences (in your terms), in the sense that they are not causes that give rise to effects.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 11:42 am I think you are referring to an effect which presents as a change in the state of things, without itself initiating a new event.
"Who cares, wins"
- Marvin_Edwards
- Posts: 1106
- Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
- Favorite Philosopher: William James
- Contact:
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Perhaps. Can you think of an example?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 6th, 2020, 10:11 amI am certainly referring to the possibility that some events have no consequences (in your terms), in the sense that they are not causes that give rise to effects.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 11:42 am I think you are referring to an effect which presents as a change in the state of things, without itself initiating a new event.
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Although what exactly constitutes a cause, and what an effect is a matter of perspective and definition; I do not think is possible by definition of you to be aware of ANY event that is without effect, since the actually observation of such an event - or even the knowledge of it is an effect that is caused by that event.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 6th, 2020, 10:11 amI am certainly referring to the possibility that some events have no consequences (in your terms), in the sense that they are not causes that give rise to effects.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 5th, 2020, 11:42 am I think you are referring to an effect which presents as a change in the state of things, without itself initiating a new event.
Take a breath, read it again, and think it through.
An event is effectively a cause. (pun intended)
-
- Posts: 1719
- Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Meaning has no meaning if never shown.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
I hadn't thought of that.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 6th, 2020, 3:42 pmAlthough what exactly constitutes a cause, and what an effect is a matter of perspective and definition; I do not think is possible by definition of you to be aware of ANY event that is without effect, since the actual observation of such an event - or even the knowledge of it is an effect that is caused by that event.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 6th, 2020, 10:11 am I am certainly referring to the possibility that some events have no consequences (in your terms), in the sense that they are not causes that give rise to effects.
"Who cares, wins"
- Sculptor1
- Posts: 7091
- Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am
Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Only happy to helpPattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 7th, 2020, 6:07 amI hadn't thought of that.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑May 6th, 2020, 3:42 pm
Although what exactly constitutes a cause, and what an effect is a matter of perspective and definition; I do not think is possible by definition of you to be aware of ANY event that is without effect, since the actual observation of such an event - or even the knowledge of it is an effect that is caused by that event.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023