What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

I got into a discussion where we ended up with some circular definitions. One of the questions was whether certain words, like "meaningful" and "relevant" were wholly subjective or whether they might have objective meanings.

The objective definition of "meaningful" would depend upon an objective definition of "meaning". And as I thought about this, a weird notion popped up:

The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.

If the consequences are subjective, then the meaning is subjective. But if the consequences are objective, then the meaning is objective.

We usually equate the meaning of a word with its definition. The definition is inductively derived by the use of the word in speech. How does the word operate in speech? Is it a verb indicating some action? Then the consequence of the word is to convey the notion of that action, in some context, to someone else. Is the word a noun? Then the consequence of the word is to recall that person or thing to someone's mind. The definition of the word is the notion being conveyed, and the meaning of the word is the consequences of conveying that notion.

So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8265
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
Taking cause and effect - another thorny topic 😉 - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.

It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

There's other stuff to comment on with your post, but this struck me as very curious:
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pmThe source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
Can you explain this better and give an example?
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am There's other stuff to comment on with your post, but this struck me as very curious:
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pmThe source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
Can you explain this better and give an example?
What is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 10:27 am What is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.
Wouldn't different people focus on different things re "the consequences of having one in the house"?
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

(For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:24 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
Taking cause and effect - another thorny topic 😉 - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.

It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
The notion of cause and effect organizes events in a useful way. It pairs two related events, event1 as the cause and event2 as the effect. Then we move up one event and event2 becomes the cause and event3 becomes the effect.
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 am
Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.
It wouldn't be just one consequence of something would it? It would be every single consequence of it, no?
User avatar
Marvin_Edwards
Posts: 1106
Joined: April 14th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Contact:

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 2:38 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 am

Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.
It wouldn't be just one consequence of something would it? It would be every single consequence of it, no?
Sure.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by h_k_s »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm I got into a discussion where we ended up with some circular definitions. One of the questions was whether certain words, like "meaningful" and "relevant" were wholly subjective or whether they might have objective meanings.

The objective definition of "meaningful" would depend upon an objective definition of "meaning". And as I thought about this, a weird notion popped up:

The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.

If the consequences are subjective, then the meaning is subjective. But if the consequences are objective, then the meaning is objective.

We usually equate the meaning of a word with its definition. The definition is inductively derived by the use of the word in speech. How does the word operate in speech? Is it a verb indicating some action? Then the consequence of the word is to convey the notion of that action, in some context, to someone else. Is the word a noun? Then the consequence of the word is to recall that person or thing to someone's mind. The definition of the word is the notion being conveyed, and the meaning of the word is the consequences of conveying that notion.

So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
Well, for philosophical inquiry purposes, you must begin somewhere.

While Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, together with the rest of the ancient and pre-Descartes world never really questioned this notion of beginnings, it was Rene Descartes himself who in 1637 in his writing of "Descourse on the Method," he posits "cogito ergo sum."

Thus, the "meaning of a thing" is its existence, not just its "consequence."
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by h_k_s »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:24 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
Taking cause and effect - another thorny topic 😉 - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.

It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
Pattern-chaser , I like your isolation and identification of "cause and effect."
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by h_k_s »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 10:27 am
Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am There's other stuff to comment on with your post, but this struck me as very curious:



Can you explain this better and give an example?
What is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.
Do you remember the philosophical discussions of "orange-ness"?

If so then "dog-ness" would also apply to that category of objects outside of ourselves.

Of course, once you take in a pet of your own, you then grow to love it emotionally, and it no longer continues to be an object. It then becomes an integral part of your own self.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by h_k_s »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 am
Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.
"Subjective" simply is a word describing presumptions or conclusions that are dependent on their circumstances.

Whereas "objective" is a word describing such presumptions or conclusions which are absolutely unchanged by their circumstances.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?

Post by h_k_s »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Exactly right Terrapin Station . For you the dog remains as an external object.

Only after you had learned to love the dog would it become an inseparable part of you internally as well as externally.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021