What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
- Marvin_Edwards
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What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
The objective definition of "meaningful" would depend upon an objective definition of "meaning". And as I thought about this, a weird notion popped up:
The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
If the consequences are subjective, then the meaning is subjective. But if the consequences are objective, then the meaning is objective.
We usually equate the meaning of a word with its definition. The definition is inductively derived by the use of the word in speech. How does the word operate in speech? Is it a verb indicating some action? Then the consequence of the word is to convey the notion of that action, in some context, to someone else. Is the word a noun? Then the consequence of the word is to recall that person or thing to someone's mind. The definition of the word is the notion being conveyed, and the meaning of the word is the consequences of conveying that notion.
So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Taking cause and effect - another thorny topic - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
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- Terrapin Station
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Can you explain this better and give an example?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pmThe source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
- Marvin_Edwards
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
What is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am There's other stuff to comment on with your post, but this struck me as very curious:
Can you explain this better and give an example?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pmThe source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Wouldn't different people focus on different things re "the consequences of having one in the house"?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 10:27 am What is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
- Marvin_Edwards
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
The notion of cause and effect organizes events in a useful way. It pairs two related events, event1 as the cause and event2 as the effect. Then we move up one event and event2 becomes the cause and event3 becomes the effect.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 9:24 amTaking cause and effect - another thorny topic - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
- Terrapin Station
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
It wouldn't be just one consequence of something would it? It would be every single consequence of it, no?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 amYes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
- Marvin_Edwards
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Sure.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 2:38 pmIt wouldn't be just one consequence of something would it? It would be every single consequence of it, no?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 am
Yes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.
- h_k_s
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Well, for philosophical inquiry purposes, you must begin somewhere.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm I got into a discussion where we ended up with some circular definitions. One of the questions was whether certain words, like "meaningful" and "relevant" were wholly subjective or whether they might have objective meanings.
The objective definition of "meaningful" would depend upon an objective definition of "meaning". And as I thought about this, a weird notion popped up:
The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
If the consequences are subjective, then the meaning is subjective. But if the consequences are objective, then the meaning is objective.
We usually equate the meaning of a word with its definition. The definition is inductively derived by the use of the word in speech. How does the word operate in speech? Is it a verb indicating some action? Then the consequence of the word is to convey the notion of that action, in some context, to someone else. Is the word a noun? Then the consequence of the word is to recall that person or thing to someone's mind. The definition of the word is the notion being conveyed, and the meaning of the word is the consequences of conveying that notion.
So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
While Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, together with the rest of the ancient and pre-Descartes world never really questioned this notion of beginnings, it was Rene Descartes himself who in 1637 in his writing of "Descourse on the Method," he posits "cogito ergo sum."
Thus, the "meaning of a thing" is its existence, not just its "consequence."
- h_k_s
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Pattern-chaser , I like your isolation and identification of "cause and effect."Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 9:24 amTaking cause and effect - another thorny topic 😉 - as an example, we can see that causes have consequences - their effects - while effects might not. Your idea seems to apply only to causes?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm The source of meaning is consequence. The meaning of a thing is the consequence(s) of the thing.
That seems more like it. Meaning is something we ascribe to certain things.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 1st, 2020, 11:02 pm So, when we use the word "meaningful" regarding some notion, we mean that the notion has some significant consequence of particular relevance to us and our lives.
It is true that all parts of the universe (i.e. Everything) are connected (or associated with) all other parts, but I think it's a gross and unjustifiable over-simplification to assume that all these parts can be seen either as causes or effects. When all those many types of associations are considered, it seems unlikely that they all reduce to two such simple descriptions: cause and effect.
- h_k_s
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Do you remember the philosophical discussions of "orange-ness"?Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 10:27 amWhat is the meaning of a "dog"? The definition may describe the characteristics used to distinguish a dog from other animals. But the meaning of the dog is all the consequences of having one in the house. The welcome when you get home, and all the other stuff that happens.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 9:27 am There's other stuff to comment on with your post, but this struck me as very curious:
Can you explain this better and give an example?
If so then "dog-ness" would also apply to that category of objects outside of ourselves.
Of course, once you take in a pet of your own, you then grow to love it emotionally, and it no longer continues to be an object. It then becomes an integral part of your own self.
- h_k_s
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
"Subjective" simply is a word describing presumptions or conclusions that are dependent on their circumstances.Marvin_Edwards wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:37 amYes. There is subjective meaning as well as objective meaning. The meaning of gravity is that we don't fly off the face of our rotating planet. That's objective meaning.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Whereas "objective" is a word describing such presumptions or conclusions which are absolutely unchanged by their circumstances.
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Re: What is the Meaning of "Meaning"?
Exactly right Terrapin Station . For you the dog remains as an external object.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 2nd, 2020, 11:15 am (For example, I wouldn't want a dog in my house, so I'd focus on the dog making noise (I can't stand barking), smelling, making messes, hopefully not going to the bathroom in the house, needing maintenance, etc.--I'd focus on the burdens I'd rather avoid.)
Only after you had learned to love the dog would it become an inseparable part of you internally as well as externally.
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