Subjective or Objective: Which?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 11:01 am
gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 10:42 am let me assure that you can hold your objective view as valid.
I never claim objective knowledge of anything. On the contrary, my understanding of objectivity.
Knowledge is neither objective or subjective, unlike view and opinion. Objectivity is a different concern which I would avoid here and now.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 2:04 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 11:52 am
Let me ask you.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
Answer. You can hold an objective view, or you can hold a subjective view. You can change it any way you like, say, back to your old subjective view, old objective view, or some new view which can be subjective or objective. It is fine, as long as you are true to yourself. Note that your influence or no influence by others, and to what degree, is often beyond your control.
You avoided the question as I thought you would.
Try again.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 2:12 pm
gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 2:04 pm

Answer. You can hold an objective view, or you can hold a subjective view. You can change it any way you like, say, back to your old subjective view, old objective view, or some new view which can be subjective or objective. It is fine, as long as you are true to yourself. Note that your influence or no influence by others, and to what degree, is often beyond your control.
You avoided the question as I thought you would.
Try again.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
Answer. Yes, if the new one is an objective view; No, if it is a subjective view. How would I know? You should know, and you should tell me. Don't ask me to get inside your head.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 5:17 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 2:12 pm
You avoided the question as I thought you would.
Try again.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
Answer. Yes, if the new one is an objective view; No, if it is a subjective view. How would I know? You should know, and you should tell me. Don't ask me to get inside your head.
So you are saying that two different view are both objective? How?

It is clear from your answer that you do not have the slightest clue what objective means. Thank you.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 2:12 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 11:01 am I never claim objective knowledge of anything. On the contrary, my understanding of objectivity - in its mild or extreme meanings - leads me to reject it as a useless exercise in intellectual/philosophical Onanism.
Knowledge is neither objective or subjective, unlike view and opinion. Objectivity is a different concern which I would avoid here and now.
[ I replaced my elided text so that it makes sense again. ]


Knowledge is objective if it is mind-independent, which I believe is your theme here. Some people claim that their views are "objective", meaning that their views comprise or describe mind-independent knowledge. Objectivity is a desparate and doomed search for certainty; I agree it's worth avoiding, "here and now", and anywhere (and anywhen) else.
Pattern-chaser

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gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 4th, 2020, 9:00 am
Knowledge is objective if it is mind-independent, which I believe is your theme here. Some people claim that their views are "objective", meaning that their views comprise or describe mind-independent knowledge. Objectivity is a desparate and doomed search for certainty; I agree it's worth avoiding, "here and now", and anywhere (and anywhen) else.
Knowledge should be accepted as is. One either knows or not. If you know, but your mind tells you to reject the knowledge, then you are in denial. In this respect, knowledge is neither subjective nor objective.

People can claim their view being objective after they have knowledge of others' view, and have taken such view into consideration.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 4th, 2020, 11:47 am
People can claim their view being objective after they have knowledge of others' view, and have taken such view into consideration.
DO you have an example that is not just banal?
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 4th, 2020, 11:53 am
gad-fly wrote: July 4th, 2020, 11:47 am
People can claim their view being objective after they have knowledge of others' view, and have taken such view into consideration.
DO you have an example that is not just banal?
I don't know about you, but I have been influenced many times by others to change my view from subjective to objective. Sorry, but I am not about to discuss what is private to me here.
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 4th, 2020, 9:00 am
Knowledge is objective if it is mind-independent, which I believe is your theme here. Some people claim that their views are "objective", meaning that their views comprise or describe mind-independent knowledge. Objectivity is a desparate and doomed search for certainty; I agree it's worth avoiding, "here and now", and anywhere (and anywhen) else.
I take your 'mind-independent' to mean independent of one's own mind. Since this thread is not about knowledge, let me cut it short.

People should claim their view subjective or objective, depending on where it emanates. If from self, it is subjective. If from others, or self plus others, it is objective. Objective is comparatively better in being more balanced, though not necessarily better. Suffice to say that no self-respecting person would dismiss his own initial subjective view as one-sided or stupid, humble as he may be.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 6:46 pm Objective is comparatively better in being more balanced,
How would we know it's more balanced? Just because other people are thinking or something doesn't mean that they're more balanced.
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 9th, 2020, 8:00 pm
gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 6:46 pm Objective is comparatively better in being more balanced,
How would we know it's more balanced? Just because other people are thinking or something doesn't mean that they're more balanced.
Consider it more balanced if the objective view is arrived at, after various view available to you from others together with your own subjective view, have been taken into account by you.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 9:37 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: July 9th, 2020, 8:00 pm

How would we know it's more balanced? Just because other people are thinking or something doesn't mean that they're more balanced.
Consider it more balanced if the objective view is arrived at, after various view available to you from others together with your own subjective view, have been taken into account by you.
So say that you believe there are aliens who visit Earth, and you think they can maybe help you. You talk to a number of other people in your vicinity, and they believe that the aliens will be arriving on a particular date, and you all need to commit suicide so that the aliens can bring you to paradise.

Is that a balanced view when you take it into account in conjunction with your own view?
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 10th, 2020, 6:58 am
gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 9:37 pm

Consider it more balanced if the objective view is arrived at, after various view available to you from others together with your own subjective view, have been taken into account by you.
So say that you believe there are aliens who visit Earth, and you think they can maybe help you. You talk to a number of other people in your vicinity, and they believe that the aliens will be arriving on a particular date, and you all need to commit suicide so that the aliens can bring you to paradise.

Is that a balanced view when you take it into account in conjunction with your own view?
Yes.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 6:46 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 4th, 2020, 9:00 am
Knowledge is objective if it is mind-independent, which I believe is your theme here. Some people claim that their views are "objective", meaning that their views comprise or describe mind-independent knowledge. Objectivity is a desparate and doomed search for certainty; I agree it's worth avoiding, "here and now", and anywhere (and anywhen) else.
I take your 'mind-independent' to mean independent of one's own mind. Since this thread is not about knowledge, let me cut it short.
No, it is intended to mean independent of all minds.
gad-fly wrote: July 9th, 2020, 6:46 pm People should claim their view subjective or objective, depending on where it emanates. If from self, it is subjective. If from others, or self plus others, it is objective.
I've retired from this fray once before, but somehow got drawn back in. But now I really think it's time for me to leave. I can't make sense of the radical redefinition you have given to these two common (to philosophers) terms, and cannot see how this is anything more than a discussion about consensus.

Take care. 🙂
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Thomyum2
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Thomyum2 »

gad-fly, it occurred to me yesterday when I came across this familiar passage from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass that you are playing a Humpty-Dumpty game with your definitions of these two words!
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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