Subjective or Objective: Which?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: July 10th, 2020, 11:03 am
Terrapin Station wrote: July 10th, 2020, 6:58 am

So say that you believe there are aliens who visit Earth, and you think they can maybe help you. You talk to a number of other people in your vicinity, and they believe that the aliens will be arriving on a particular date, and you all need to commit suicide so that the aliens can bring you to paradise.

Is that a balanced view when you take it into account in conjunction with your own view?
Yes.
So "balanced" is just tautologous with "consensus" (in some domain) no matter what the consensus actually is?

The problem with that is that it has none of the conventional connotations of the term "balanced."
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Thomyum2 wrote: July 10th, 2020, 11:23 am gad-fly, it occurred to me yesterday when I came across this familiar passage from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass that you are playing a Humpty-Dumpty game with your definitions of these two words!
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."
This is a joke. First of all, a person should only take a word on what it means to him, or what he understands it to mean. He does not have a choice.

Can one word mean different things? Of course it can, but not opposites. Good cannot mean good or bad.

Which is master? Not a relevant question.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 10th, 2020, 11:20 am
I've retired from this fray once before, but somehow got drawn back in. But now I really think it's time for me to leave. I can't make sense of the radical redefinition you have given to these two common (to philosophers) terms, and cannot see how this is anything more than a discussion about consensus.

Take care. 🙂
Happy retirement, though not from consensus. Rather, it from Which?
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 10th, 2020, 1:49 pm
So "balanced" is just tautologous with "consensus" (in some domain) no matter what the consensus actually is?

The problem with that is that it has none of the conventional connotations of the term "balanced."
Balance is not consensus. You can hold a balanced view. Others may do the same or not. Consensus may not necessarily be reached even if all all views are balanced, for the simple reason that balanced views are different.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 10th, 2020, 2:31 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: July 10th, 2020, 1:49 pm
So "balanced" is just tautologous with "consensus" (in some domain) no matter what the consensus actually is?

The problem with that is that it has none of the conventional connotations of the term "balanced."
Balance is not consensus. You can hold a balanced view. Others may do the same or not. Consensus may not necessarily be reached even if all all views are balanced, for the simple reason that balanced views are different.
So what makes something balanced on your view?
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 11th, 2020, 8:26 am
So what makes something balanced on your view?
Balance as a verb in dictionary. 1. to be or come into equilibrium. 2. to assess or compare the relative weight, importance, etc.

A view is brought into equilibrium when one has assessed or has compared the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views, to reach what may be called the Balanced View, which would have embraced his subjective and objective views. Some, including me before, might have mistaken the Balanced View as the Objective View.

The Balanced View is not consensus. Individual and group can have different Balanced Views which can co-exist and in conflict. Balance View can be changed or modified with time. Rational being would and should reach the Balanced View, individually or in group.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Thomyum2 »

gad-fly wrote: July 10th, 2020, 2:16 pm
Thomyum2 wrote: July 10th, 2020, 11:23 am gad-fly, it occurred to me yesterday when I came across this familiar passage from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass that you are playing a Humpty-Dumpty game with your definitions of these two words!

This is a joke. First of all, a person should only take a word on what it means to him, or what he understands it to mean. He does not have a choice.

Can one word mean different things? Of course it can, but not opposites. Good cannot mean good or bad.

Which is master? Not a relevant question.
Yes, it is meant to be humorous, but it is insightful too. After all, a word is just a tool for communicating, a tool which we create by associating a meaning with a word. A word doesn't have any meaning on its own other than what we've given it.

Should a person 'only take a word on what it means to him'? No. Although I can attach any meaning I want to a word, if I use it only based on what it means to me and without understanding what it means to others, then the tool won't accomplish its task. A definition that is not shared is of no use.

There's no idea contained in a definition itself - it is only a vehicle for the idea.
Which is master? The master is the one who can successfully communicate the idea.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Thomyum2 wrote: July 11th, 2020, 5:15 pm
Should a person 'only take a word on what it means to him'? No. Although I can attach any meaning I want to a word, if I use it only based on what it means to me and without understanding what it means to others, then the tool won't accomplish its task. A definition that is not shared is of no use.
I should have said a person should "only take a word by what he understands it to mean ( to all)." He does not have a choice of his understanding.

What is good for the gander may not be good for the goose. Does 'what' mean both good and bad? No, because "good for" is not meant to be both.

It would be futile and frustrating to communicate under different definitions. This thread has served as a good example. To convince in advance, many have offered their view as objective, with a claim or pretense of humbleness. "Look, I have taken other views into account, and I am not (or not entirely) subjective." What they really mean is that they have made the effort to offer a view Balanced by them beforehand.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 11th, 2020, 10:57 am
Terrapin Station wrote: July 11th, 2020, 8:26 am
So what makes something balanced on your view?
Balance as a verb in dictionary. 1. to be or come into equilibrium. 2. to assess or compare the relative weight, importance, etc.

A view is brought into equilibrium when one has assessed or has compared the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views, to reach what may be called the Balanced View, which would have embraced his subjective and objective views. Some, including me before, might have mistaken the Balanced View as the Objective View.

The Balanced View is not consensus. Individual and group can have different Balanced Views which can co-exist and in conflict. Balance View can be changed or modified with time. Rational being would and should reach the Balanced View, individually or in group.
You defined "objective" so that other persons' views are objective. And then you said that objective views are categorically more balanced. How does the mere fact that a set of views belong to other people imply that "one has assessed or has compared the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views"?
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 11th, 2020, 6:38 pm
You defined "objective" so that other persons' views are objective. And then you said that objective views are categorically more balanced. How does the mere fact that a set of views belong to other people imply that "one has assessed or has compared the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views"?
First you start with your own subjective view. Then you come across other people's view(s). You are challenged by two or more views. You may modify your subjective view, or not; you may accept objectively other people's view, or not; you may even form a new view which is none of the above. Congratulate yourself on having arrived at a Balanced View, resulting from assessment or comparison by you on the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 11th, 2020, 11:56 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: July 11th, 2020, 6:38 pm
You defined "objective" so that other persons' views are objective. And then you said that objective views are categorically more balanced. How does the mere fact that a set of views belong to other people imply that "one has assessed or has compared the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views"?
First you start with your own subjective view. Then you come across other people's view(s). You are challenged by two or more views. You may modify your subjective view, or not; you may accept objectively other people's view, or not; you may even form a new view which is none of the above. Congratulate yourself on having arrived at a Balanced View, resulting from assessment or comparison by you on the relative weight, importance, etc. of different views.
Sure, so there's no expectation for objective views to be in agreement or to be correct with respect to facts, etc., right?
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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("To be in agreement with other objective views" I mean above)
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 12th, 2020, 6:20 pm
Sure, so there's no expectation for objective views to be in agreement or to be correct with respect to facts, etc., right?
Wrong. First of all, view should be based on fact. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as correct or incorrect view, be it objective or subjective. If you get the fact wrong, your view will be distorted. The most you can expect is to get your view appropriate to the circumstance, such that you can posit comfortably, and relax.

Next, view to be in agreement is a different issue. Your subjective or objective view may or may not agree with that of others. If not, you can bend backward, or you can stand your ground, but sometimes you cannot please them all.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: July 12th, 2020, 7:09 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: July 12th, 2020, 6:20 pm
Sure, so there's no expectation for objective views to be in agreement or to be correct with respect to facts, etc., right?
Wrong. First of all, view should be based on fact. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as correct or incorrect view, be it objective or subjective. If you get the fact wrong, your view will be distorted. The most you can expect is to get your view appropriate to the circumstance, such that you can posit comfortably, and relax.

Next, view to be in agreement is a different issue. Your subjective or objective view may or may not agree with that of others. If not, you can bend backward, or you can stand your ground, but sometimes you cannot please them all.
Okay, but there was nothing in your account of objective or balanced (by way of objectivity) views of there needing to be any agreement or coherence with fact. You said that merely considering others' views and reaching conclusions based on that made something balanced and objective.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Terrapin Station wrote: July 12th, 2020, 7:25 pm
Okay, but there was nothing in your account of objective or balanced (by way of objectivity) views of there needing to be any agreement or coherence with fact. You said that merely considering others' views and reaching conclusions based on that made something balanced and objective.
How is a view formed? It cannot come from thin air. It must be based on fact, or what can be identified as fact. You see dark clouds, and your view is that it will rain. The clouds are the fact. They do not need agreement. Why are there clouds? That is another story. Your view is more appropriate than if there are light clouds in the sky.

Balance is relative, a matter of degree. Perhaps I should say more balanced and less balanced. Perfect balance is rare, not found in The Merchant of Venice. The more you consider diverse views, the less likely will your view be tilted too much to one side, and hence closer to majority opinion, which Is what
balance is about.

Considering others' views and reaching conclusion (view) based on that made something balanced and objective? I have to qualify the statement. If there are a few others, the statement is substantively correct, but if there is only one, then it is not necessarily so since it may be you against him. You have been converted by him? Fine, but it does not mean his view is mode balanced.

Best of all, consider others' views and also your own subjective view in conjunction. If you don't mind, place more weight on your subjective view, unless you are that humble.
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