Subjective or Objective: Which?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Ron Krumpos wrote: June 28th, 2020, 2:31 pm Be objective, not subjective. To control sentiments of “I,” weigh reactions to your words, others’ sensitivity to your thoughts and probable consequences of your actions. To heighten thinking beyond “me,” be cognizant of the reasons for your reasoning, goals of your learning, relevance of your memories, and real possibilities in your imagining. To enhance your senses beyond “my,” look not just see, listen not only hear, feel not solely touch, identify the scent not merely smell, and savor not taste alone. Go outside “self,” beyond me. The inherent significance of what is presently here is external.
Your thoughtful and philosophical advice to go beyond self is appreciated. The last sentence is not understood. I would qualify the first sentence with striking balance between the two.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 1st, 2020, 11:01 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 1st, 2020, 5:08 am Subjectivity is easy. Objectivity is not achievable, and is no more than an aspiration to seek or a reflection of the negative. Objectivity is easy to stop when it is absent, but not so easy to establish.
You have made your point on Subjectivity and Objectivity, and on how to deal with what is not achievable or not yet established. It is time to move on. This thread is not about Subjectivity and Objectivity.
LOL
Have you looked at the heading recently?

The following quotation from internet applies:
"The real difference in subjective vs. objective is that objective situations can be observed independent of personal biases and experience (i.e. data), whereas subjective situations can usually only be viewed by one person, filtered through their unique lens of personal experience, taste, emotion, and bias."
You can quote as much crapola as you like, but since it is not possible to observe without a point of view, your idea of what is objective is nonsense.

More concisely: Subjective is by one person = self; Objective is independent of personal (i.e. aspirational, as impossible)= others. Both are view on situation.

Time to be back on track.
And yet you said (above) "This thread is not about Subjectivity and Objectivity.", but you have talked about nothing else.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 1st, 2020, 11:01 am The following quotation from internet applies:
"The real difference in subjective vs. objective is that objective situations can be observed independent of personal biases and experience (i.e. data), whereas subjective situations can usually only be viewed by one person, filtered through their unique lens of personal experience, taste, emotion, and bias."

More concisely: Subjective is by one person = self; Objective is independent of personal = others. Both are view on situation.
There is no mention in your quote of "others". It refers only to objective situations, and explains how they can be "observed" independently of bias, etc. No mention of others, or of consensus. Objective is independent of personal = unbiased/impartial/detached/etc.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 8:56 am
gad-fly wrote: July 1st, 2020, 11:01 am The following quotation from internet applies:
"The real difference in subjective vs. objective is that objective situations can be observed independent of personal biases and experience (i.e. data), whereas subjective situations can usually only be viewed by one person, filtered through their unique lens of personal experience, taste, emotion, and bias."

More concisely: Subjective is by one person = self; Objective is independent of personal = others. Both are view on situation.
There is no mention in your quote of "others". It refers only to objective situations, and explains how they can be "observed" independently of bias, etc. No mention of others, or of consensus. Objective is independent of personal = unbiased/impartial/detached/etc.
An objective view is (or should be) valid for everyone. An objective view is not the perspective of many or others. That's sort of the point. Everyone has their own (subjective) perspective; and an objective perspective isn't just someone else's subjective view instead of your own, nor is it an average of everyone else's perspectives, because that would still contain everyone else's subjective biases/etc.

An objective perspective in independent of all subjective perspectives, whose-ever they are. It is the perspective of no-one.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 9:04 am
An objective view is (or should be) valid for everyone. An objective view is not the perspective of many or others.
A person can form two views: Subjective or Objective. Both are his own. Thus it is correct to say: An objective view is not the perspective of others. Define it as his view as influenced by others to whatever degree, but not copied from others. See the difference?

Whether a view is valid or not is open to debate. A person must hold his view valid. Otherwise he would not hold such view in the first place. If he critically reviews his and others' in the market before picking one, fine. He may make a declaration, but it does not follow that this would be swallowed by everyone. As an example, I say my picked view is valid, but that is only me, and I would respect yours which I may consider invalid.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 30th, 2020, 10:01 am
gad-fly wrote: June 6th, 2020, 3:27 pm Subjective usually begins with "I think . . .", whereas Objective would begin with "What others may think . . ." Which is superior? If asked, the answer to the question should depend on the surrounding circumstances. The answer may also be: None of the above.

The benefit of being subjective lies in the clarity of source, since I must understand and appreciate what and why I am thinking in this manner. The thought may arise from gut feeling, without justification, or it may arise after debate on my head about pros and cons arraigned against one another.

The benefit of being objective lies in there being many others arraigned against single me. Am I a megalomaniac to think I can be wiser than so many? I should be humble enough to submit to the majority. Who do I think I am?

The benefit of being objective lies in quantity. However, a person cannot see more clearly in himself than he can see in others. How he can be assured that a complete debate has been undertaken as to convince him to change his mind? Even if that outside debate has been undertaken, why should he being unconvinced change his mind, to submit to what may be called the dictatorship of the majority? Confuscius once said: If I am right, I shall go against millions. The moral of the story: Confuscius spent most of his life roaming in poverty, misery, and frustration. You should know which to pick.
I've gone back to the OP here, and read it again. And now I see a simple appeal to understand "objective" as "consensus" ("What others may think", "many others arraigned against single me", "The benefit of being objective lies in quantity"). It is quite impossible to derive objectivity from consensus. It's true that we can avoid certain simple errors and biases, if we're lucky, by combining many views and hoping the biases will cancel out. Statistics tells us that some of them will, some of the time. But not always; statistics tells us that too. And if the consensus is mistaken anyway - perhaps as people believed the earth is flat, or that the Sun revolves around it - then the conclusions reached are not "objective".

Isn't this really a discussion about the individual versus the tribe (society/collective/etc)? Doesn't it ask what might happen when the individual disagrees with the tribe? Doesn't it ask how, why or if the view of the tribe is always "superior" to that of the individual? I think perhaps it does...? 🤔
Right, and if one intends for "objective" to have any normative appeal--and almost always people do, then a consensus as "objective" is just forwarding an argumentum ad populum, as well as it being an "appeal to conformity."
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 10:50 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 9:04 am
An objective view is (or should be) valid for everyone. An objective view is not the perspective of many or others.
A person can form two views: Subjective or Objective. Both are his own. Thus it is correct to say: An objective view is not the perspective of others. Define it as his view as influenced by others to whatever degree, but not copied from others. See the difference?
Yes, the difference is crystal clear. You are also right to assert "An objective view is not the perspective of others". But then you revert to your fallacious argument again: "Define it as his view as influenced by others...". No, an objective perspective is independent of any influence by others, or it is not objective. It is, according to your own quote, "independent of personal biases and experience". Independent of all biases, and specifically independent of the biases of "others".
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 12:31 pm It is, according to your own quote, "independent of personal biases and experience". Independent of all biases, and specifically independent of the biases of "others".
It appears you have missed the term "personal". Take personal to mean self. Your personal experience is your own experience.

Views, subjective or objective, can be subject to biases. You can avoid biases as much as you can. You do not have to say, "I have tried my best. It is clean, or perfect, and I shall describe it as objective." To do so is to chase for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry to disappoint you.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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There is no objective viewpoint. There are views that look more or less objective. And then there are views that people think are objective, but in the longue durée, all so-called objective views are subsumed by the endemic assumptions of the current moments and are declared subject to the historical and cultural norms of the time.
We should at all times treat all claims of objectivity with utter suspicion as attempts to ossify thinking, crush progress and stultify individuality.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:53 pm Views, subjective or objective, can be subject to biases. You can avoid biases as much as you can. You do not have to say, "I have tried my best. It is clean, or perfect, and I shall describe it as objective." To do so is to chase for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry to disappoint you.
I'm not disappointed, only confused. Time to stop, I think. Good luck with whatever you're pursuing here. 👍
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 9:37 am
gad-fly wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:53 pm Views, subjective or objective, can be subject to biases. You can avoid biases as much as you can. You do not have to say, "I have tried my best. It is clean, or perfect, and I shall describe it as objective." To do so is to chase for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry to disappoint you.
I'm not disappointed, only confused. Time to stop, I think. Good luck with whatever you're pursuing here. 👍
If it is any comfort, let me assure that you can hold your objective view as valid. You can hold the same with your subjective view. Furthermore, you can change your position any time you deem fit. The pursuit is ours for mutual benefit, and for others.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Terrapin Station »

gad-fly wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 3:53 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 12:31 pm It is, according to your own quote, "independent of personal biases and experience". Independent of all biases, and specifically independent of the biases of "others".
It appears you have missed the term "personal". Take personal to mean self. Your personal experience is your own experience.

Views, subjective or objective, can be subject to biases. You can avoid biases as much as you can. You do not have to say, "I have tried my best. It is clean, or perfect, and I shall describe it as objective." To do so is to chase for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Sorry to disappoint you.
Believe it or not, people who are not you are also persons, with personal biases, etc.

The idea isn't "independent of one's own personal biases and experiences, but not independent of others personal biases and experiences."

The definition is another way of saying "Independent of persons' biases and experiences." But that's a more awkward way to write that than simply saying "personal biases and experience(s)."
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

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gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 10:42 am let me assure that you can hold your objective view as valid.
I never claim objective knowledge of anything, that way I never delude myself (in that particular way 😉). I don't have an "objective view" on the subject(s) of this topic. On the contrary, my understanding of objectivity - in its mild or extreme meanings - leads me to reject it as a useless exercise in intellectual/philosophical Onanism.
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 »

gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 10:42 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 9:37 am

I'm not disappointed, only confused. Time to stop, I think. Good luck with whatever you're pursuing here. 👍
If it is any comfort, let me assure that you can hold your objective view as valid. You can hold the same with your subjective view. Furthermore, you can change your position any time you deem fit. The pursuit is ours for mutual benefit, and for others.
Let me ask you.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
gad-fly
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Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 11:52 am
gad-fly wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 10:42 am

If it is any comfort, let me assure that you can hold your objective view as valid. You can hold the same with your subjective view. Furthermore, you can change your position any time you deem fit. The pursuit is ours for mutual benefit, and for others.
Let me ask you.
If it were possible to hold an objective view, and i DID change it would it still be objective?
How would you know?
Answer. You can hold an objective view, or you can hold a subjective view. You can change it any way you like, say, back to your old subjective view, old objective view, or some new view which can be subjective or objective. It is fine, as long as you are true to yourself. Note that your influence or no influence by others, and to what degree, is often beyond your control.
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