Proof Infinity is Impossible

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devans99
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by devans99 »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 21st, 2020, 1:55 pm No, space is not expanding as you think.
Matter is being thrust into nothingness. The forces of energy and matter are creating their own space to exist, pushing into nothingness.
That it does appear to be the case the space itself is expanding:

- The redshifts of distance galaxies indicate they are receding from us at faster than the speed of light
- Nothing can move relative to another thing at FTL speeds
- So the only mechanism we have to account for these high redshifts is that space itself is expanding
- 'Nothing' cannot expand so space is 'something'
devans99
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: July 21st, 2020, 3:54 pm
devans99 wrote:The container we call spacetime has existence, but I do not think it requires anywhere to 'exist in' or any position in a 'larger infinite universe'.
You seem comfortable with the notion that something of substance; i.e. something 'finite' can actually exist 'nowhere'. I cannot seem to fathom this concept. Something existing nowhere, means to me, that this something does not exist.

devans99 wrote:If you says the 2nd applies then the same argument can be made for the 'larger infinite universe' - to exist, that too would require a position within an even larger universe... and it all goes recursive again.
No, not with an 'infinite' universe. An infinite universe has no finite borders that need to exist anywhere. An infinite universe has no borders.

devans99 wrote:So space-time just expands and that's it - it does not need anything to expand into - it simply replaces 'nothing' when it expands.
This too is beyond comprehension. How can something "expand" if there is nowhere to expand?

I do not see why spacetime does not really need a position in a larger container. I imagine spacetime surrounded by just 'nothing'. 'Nothing' has no existence so is not infinite.

I am firmly of the opinion that spacetime is finite. When space expands, it pushes back the boundaries of 'nothing'. I don't think space needs a larger container to expand into. You can replace 'nothing' with 'something'.

The 'nothing' that surrounds spacetime - 'nothing' does not exist - so it can't be said to be infinite.

I think the BB started as a finite region of space.

The alternative, the Big Bang starting as an infinite, expanding region, is a logical minefield. How can something infinite expand? If it expands then it is bigger than it was before - which implies it was not infinite in the first place - contradiction - the Big Bang started as a finite region of space.

Or we can represent the expansion of an infinite space with ∞+1=∞, which implies space is not expanding - contradiction - hence the Big Bang started as a finite region of space.

This finite region of space has been expanding for the last 14 billion years at a finite rate - hence space was, is and always will be finite.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by Sculptor1 »

devans99 wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 9:09 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 21st, 2020, 1:55 pm No, space is not expanding as you think.
Matter is being thrust into nothingness. The forces of energy and matter are creating their own space to exist, pushing into nothingness.
That it does appear to be the case the space itself is expanding:

- The redshifts of distance galaxies indicate they are receding from us at faster than the speed of light
Things that travel faster than light are invisible; think about it!
- Nothing can move relative to another thing at FTL speeds
Nothing can move at all at FTL
- So the only mechanism we have to account for these high redshifts is that space itself is expanding.
How?
- 'Nothing' cannot expand so space is 'something'
Like I said. Space is only a reflection of the things that are in it.
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RJG
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by RJG »

devans99 wrote:I imagine spacetime surrounded by just 'nothing'. 'Nothing' has no existence so is not infinite.
This comes across as contradictory to me. In the first sentence you imply "nothing exists" (as it is specifically that, which "surrounds" something). And in the second sentence you say "nothing does not exist".

If "nothing does not exist", then how can it "surround" something? Either 'nothing' exists, or it doesn't exist, ...can't have it both ways.

devans99 wrote:I am firmly of the opinion that spacetime is finite. When space expands, it pushes back the boundaries of 'nothing'.
Again, if "nothing does not exist" then it can't border, bound, separate, or surround something.

devans99 wrote:I don't think space needs a larger container to expand into.
Remember, you are talking about a FINITE space here, which definitionally implies finite borders. If these finite borders exist nowhere, then they don't exist, and if they don't exist then neither do the contents within these finite borders.

devans99 wrote:I think the BB started as a finite region of space.
If so, then this implies:

1. The BB did not create space. There was 'space' before the BB. There was a 'place' for the BB to start and happen.

2. The BB did not create time. There was 'time' before the BB. There was a 'time' for the BB to start and happen.

devans99 wrote:So the BB did not create space?

The alternative, the Big Bang starting as an infinite, expanding region, is a logical minefield.
It is logically impossible [X<X] for the BB to create spacetime (and matter). Both time and space (and matter) must pre-exist "something happening somewhere" (matter-time-space). In other words, the BB, to be the BB, needs some-where to bang, and some-thing to bang, and some-time (beginning, during, and end) to bang. Without these 3 pre-existing ingredients, there could be no BB.

devans99 wrote:How can something infinite expand?
It can't. The story about an "expanding" universe is today's fiction, just as "flat earth" was yesterday's fiction.

The universe can only be infinite. This is the only solution that is logically coherent.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 2:41 pm
devans99 wrote:I imagine spacetime surrounded by just 'nothing'. 'Nothing' has no existence so is not infinite.
This comes across as contradictory to me. In the first sentence you imply "nothing exists" (as it is specifically that, which "surrounds" something). And in the second sentence you say "nothing does not exist".

If "nothing does not exist", then how can it "surround" something? Either 'nothing' exists, or it doesn't exist, ...can't have it both ways.

devans99 wrote:I am firmly of the opinion that spacetime is finite. When space expands, it pushes back the boundaries of 'nothing'.
Again, if "nothing does not exist" then it can't border, bound, separate, or surround something.

devans99 wrote:I don't think space needs a larger container to expand into.
Remember, you are talking about a FINITE space here, which definitionally implies finite borders. If these finite borders exist nowhere, then they don't exist, and if they don't exist then neither do the contents within these finite borders.

devans99 wrote:I think the BB started as a finite region of space.
If so, then this implies:

1. The BB did not create space. There was 'space' before the BB. There was a 'place' for the BB to start and happen.



2. The BB did not create time. There was 'time' before the BB. There was a 'time' for the BB to start and happen.
"nothing existed before the BB," is perfectly consistent with my view of space. But it is a thing that needs no creation. Space IS nothing.
devans99 wrote:So the BB did not create space?

The alternative, the Big Bang starting as an infinite, expanding region, is a logical minefield.
It is logically impossible [X<X] for the BB to create spacetime (and matter). Both time and space (and matter) must pre-exist "something happening somewhere" (matter-time-space). In other words, the BB, to be the BB, needs some-where to bang, and some-thing to bang, and some-time (beginning, during, and end) to bang. Without these 3 pre-existing ingredients, there could be no BB.

devans99 wrote:How can something infinite expand?
It can't. The story about an "expanding" universe is today's fiction, just as "flat earth" was yesterday's fiction.

The universe can only be infinite. This is the only solution that is logically coherent.
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RJG
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:1. The BB did not create space. There was 'space' before the BB. There was a 'place' for the BB to start and happen.

2. The BB did not create time. There was 'time' before the BB. There was a 'time' for the BB to start and happen.
Sculptor1 wrote:"nothing existed before the BB," is perfectly consistent with my view of space. But it is a thing that needs no creation. Space IS nothing.
So from your view point, only matter is real, and space and time are not real? They (space and time) are just human constructs to describe relative position/distance of matter existing in pure nothingness? Is this your correct view?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 5:16 pm
RJG wrote:1. The BB did not create space. There was 'space' before the BB. There was a 'place' for the BB to start and happen.

2. The BB did not create time. There was 'time' before the BB. There was a 'time' for the BB to start and happen.
Sculptor1 wrote:"nothing existed before the BB," is perfectly consistent with my view of space. But it is a thing that needs no creation. Space IS nothing.
So from your view point, only matter is real, and space and time are not real? They (space and time) are just human constructs to describe relative position/distance of matter existing in pure nothingness? Is this your correct view?
Matter and Energy are of the same order of things.

Space and Time is about measure, not substance. They are real like "one" is real, or "a meter" is real.
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RJG
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by RJG »

Sculptor1 wrote:Matter and Energy are of the same order of things.

Space and Time is about measure, not substance. They are real like "one" is real, or "a meter" is real
Okay, so then has matter/energy always (infinitely) existed? ...or were they created by something (that did not yet exist)?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 6:08 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:Matter and Energy are of the same order of things.

Space and Time is about measure, not substance. They are real like "one" is real, or "a meter" is real
Okay, so then has matter/energy always (infinitely) existed? ...or were they created by something (that did not yet exist)?
It is beyond the posssibility of empirical evidence to answer that question.
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RJG
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by RJG »

Sculptor1 wrote:Matter and Energy are of the same order of things.

Space and Time is about measure, not substance. They are real like "one" is real, or "a meter" is real.
Sculptor1, I don't necessarily disagree with your view here. It appears to have viability (logically possible). Also, 'dimensions' (space and time) are a strange, seemingly man-made concept, not real themselves. So, regardless what science says, I might end up agreeing with you on this one.

RJG wrote:Okay, so then has matter/energy always (infinitely) existed? ...or were they created by something (that did not yet exist)?
Sculptor1 wrote:It is beyond the posssibility of empirical evidence to answer that question.
Although "empirically" we can't answer this question, but "logically" the answer is very clear. X<X is logically impossible. If matter/energy is all that truly exist, then it has always (infinitely) existed.

...which proves that 'infinity' is possible, and in fact unavoidable.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: July 23rd, 2020, 7:40 am
Sculptor1 wrote:Matter and Energy are of the same order of things.

Space and Time is about measure, not substance. They are real like "one" is real, or "a meter" is real.
Sculptor1, I don't necessarily disagree with your view here. It appears to have viability (logically possible). Also, 'dimensions' (space and time) are a strange, seemingly man-made concept, not real themselves. So, regardless what science says, I might end up agreeing with you on this one.

RJG wrote:Okay, so then has matter/energy always (infinitely) existed? ...or were they created by something (that did not yet exist)?
Sculptor1 wrote:It is beyond the posssibility of empirical evidence to answer that question.
Although "empirically" we can't answer this question, but "logically" the answer is very clear. X<X is logically impossible. If matter/energy is all that truly exist, then it has always (infinitely) existed.

...which proves that 'infinity' is possible, and in fact unavoidable.
Logic is always completely limited by the premises upon which it is built. Whilst the systems of logic may well be unimpeachably correct, the logic has to be worked upon something; knowledge, speculation, assertion.
We've tried to reach concensus on the origins of the universe. The logical process has been based on uniformitarianism and the limited understanding we have of the physical world around us. There are stil many mysteries concerning the most basic characteristics of the universe; "dark matter" being but one.
devans99
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by devans99 »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 10:46 am Things that travel faster than light are invisible; think about it!
Nothing can move at all at FTL
Nothing is moving FTL. It is because the very fabric of space is expanding that distance galaxies are receding from ours at FTL speeds (but receding is different from moving).
devans99
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by devans99 »

RJG wrote: July 22nd, 2020, 2:41 pm This comes across as contradictory to me. In the first sentence you imply "nothing exists" (as it is specifically that, which "surrounds" something). And in the second sentence you say "nothing does not exist".

If "nothing does not exist", then how can it "surround" something? Either 'nothing' exists, or it doesn't exist, ...can't have it both ways.

Again, if "nothing does not exist" then it can't border, bound, separate, or surround something.

Remember, you are talking about a FINITE space here, which definitionally implies finite borders. If these finite borders exist nowhere, then they don't exist, and if they don't exist then neither do the contents within these finite borders.

If so, then this implies:

1. The BB did not create space. There was 'space' before the BB. There was a 'place' for the BB to start and happen.

2. The BB did not create time. There was 'time' before the BB. There was a 'time' for the BB to start and happen.

It is logically impossible [X<X] for the BB to create spacetime (and matter). Both time and space (and matter) must pre-exist "something happening somewhere" (matter-time-space). In other words, the BB, to be the BB, needs some-where to bang, and some-thing to bang, and some-time (beginning, during, and end) to bang. Without these 3 pre-existing ingredients, there could be no BB.
devans99 wrote:How can something infinite expand?
It can't. The story about an "expanding" universe is today's fiction, just as "flat earth" was yesterday's fiction.

The universe can only be infinite. This is the only solution that is logically coherent.
Space is finite and space is all that there is. So when I say space is 'surrounded' by nothing, its a figure of speech. There is just this finite, expanding, region of space and that is all - nothing else exists accept the finite region of space. The BB must have a cause and that cause must be external to spacetime. IE there is the timeless cause of the BB, but that is in some form of different existence outside all forms of time.

Before the BB, there was no space and no time. The BB created spacetime. Just think of a ballon and nothing else - as the ballon expands - space is created. The ballon does not need a container to exist in - it can just exist - simple.

The source of the matter/energy for the BB must be external to spacetime (the timeless environment I mentioned).

If space was not expanding, all the matter in the universe would likely be in one big black hole by now - the expansion of space is the only thing that is preventing a gravitational collapse.
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subatomic
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Re: Proof Infinity is Impossible

Post by subatomic »

If we reduce the length of our actually infinite brick to finite length, then we have a finite length brick with a left end but no right end. But such a brick cannot possibly exist - if it has no right end, it has no middle (because the middle would count as the right end) and if it has no right end, it cannot have a left end either (as the left end would also count as the right end) - so the brick cannot exist.
If the brick were on a 2D coordinate plane then one end of the brick would be negative of the x axis, and then the other side would be on the positive end and infinitely extend. And, this is only countable infinity.
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