What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

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hallrick0
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What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

Post by hallrick0 »

If the observable universe had not manifested would sufficient preconditions necessarily have been absent?

If preconditions existed outside of what is observable what would the most basic effective characteristics of that state or force be?

What are the most basic reasonable implications about the nature of preexisting conditions based on observable physical law?

Which of those implications is most likely to cause human beings to attribute personal character or deity?

Is it possible to know, derive meaningful understanding of, and predict the future action of an unobservable force based on present observations of the material universe?

Is it necessary for such a precondition or force to remain intact subsequent to initiating material consequence?

Is it reasonable to ascribe continuing agency to this preexisting condition or unseen force?

How might an investigator reorient further investigation, self-concept, and disposition toward such a precondition or force if able to know its characteristics more concretely?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

Post by Terrapin Station »

I don't know if any of these answers will be satisfactory to you, but these are my answers nonetheless.
If the observable universe had not manifested would sufficient preconditions necessarily have been absent?
I use "universe" so that it refers to everything extant, but in any event, being "generous" to the question as asked, I'd say no. An early state of the universe could have obtained without later states obtaining.
If preconditions existed outside of what is observable what would the most basic effective characteristics of that state or force be?
It could be a huge number of things. One thing we could imagine is something like a rather homogeneous soup of elementary particles in an equilibrium state. That's just one of many possibilities, though.
What are the most basic reasonable implications about the nature of preexisting conditions based on observable physical law?
I'm not a realist on physical law, and I don't think the answer to this question should really be different than the answer to the preceding question.
Which of those implications is most likely to cause human beings to attribute personal character or deity?
I don't think it's reasonable to assume a deity period.
Is it possible to know, derive meaningful understanding of, and predict the future action of an unobservable force based on present observations of the material universe?
Depends on if we mean "unobservable" in even an indirect sense. If so, then no, I don't think there's any reason to posit such a force. If we mean that it's not directly observable, but we can indirectly deduce it due to observed effects on other things, then I think that's possible to know, predict, etc.
Is it necessary for such a precondition or force to remain intact subsequent to initiating material consequence?
Not in my view. I don't buy identity through time in general, and this would require identity through time.
Is it reasonable to ascribe continuing agency to this preexisting condition or unseen force?
Not in my view. I think idea of deities are ridiculous artifacts of very primitive reasoning. I don't take talk or speculation about deities very seriously. Certainly no more seriously than I take someone who believes in Bigfoot or werewolves or ghosts or aliens who abduct and anally probe people or any popular fantasy. (And all of those other fantasies are much more fun than religious fantasies.)
How might an investigator reorient further investigation, self-concept, and disposition toward such a precondition or force if able to know its characteristics more concretely?
Simply as this is done in the sciences: logical implication re what is possible or necessary to get to the present state of things. And then we need to come up with falsifiable theories to test our ideas there.
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Re: What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

Post by Atla »

hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 am If the observable universe had not manifested would sufficient preconditions necessarily have been absent?
There's no reason to assume that the existence of the observable universe has anything to do with manifestation or preconditions.
True philosophy points to the Moon
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Re: What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

Post by series0 »

hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 am If the observable universe had not manifested would sufficient preconditions necessarily have been absent?
I would say yes, but the question lies in the verb 'manifest'. As in Manifest Destiny. This would mean that the preconditions have a cause and effect relationship with the universe.

However, i think the question presupposes a damaged or partially unaware point of view on reality. That is to say: All truth is always present. The current STATE of things is not precisely relevant. All cause and effect chains are only an endless change of state on many levels. The eternal now contains all relevant truth.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amIf preconditions existed outside of what is observable what would the most basic effective characteristics of that state or force be?
This question is able to be imagined, but demands a irresponsible or unreasonable premise, being outside of what is observable. We must continue instead to labor within reasonable bounds, that is to say, what is observable ... is all that there is.

Conjecture about the state of nonsensical unrealities, situations not governed by anything known, cannot EVEN be attempted with imagination which is sadly and obviously constrained by what is known.

But heck, knock yourself out!
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amWhat are the most basic reasonable implications about the nature of preexisting conditions based on observable physical law?
That they do not exist and do not merit anything beyond passing fancy. The exceed the limits of imagination, a line from movies all the time used quite improperly in every case EXCEPT your set of questions here! They are beyond what even I can possibly imagine! And I feel no shame in this truth.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amWhich of those implications is most likely to cause human beings to attribute personal character or deity?
The sheer inability to understand places humans in the state known as fear. To calm that fear, any and all imaginings WITHIN reality are created. This includes the most powerful entity the human was aware of at an early age, their father, as some sort of back extrapolated power. Thus the entire universe and the system of love is anthropomorphized. And that actually works and makes total sense. Love is demonstrable, even if God is not. The greatest moral agents of which we are aware are humans.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amIs it possible to know, derive meaningful understanding of, and predict the future action of an unobservable force based on present observations of the material universe?
Lol, no. The very concept of force REQUIRES that it be observable. Think about it.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amIs it necessary for such a precondition or force to remain intact subsequent to initiating material consequence?
Now you have lept thoroughly into your own rabbithole. What is intact? We are all just living cells inside the blue eyes of a giant named 'Makumba'.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amIs it reasonable to ascribe continuing agency to this preexisting condition or unseen force?
Yes, as all observable entities have agency. I'd be happy to discuss that with you, if you care.
hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 amHow might an investigator reorient further investigation, self-concept, and disposition toward such a precondition or force if able to know its characteristics more concretely?
Observation seems key. It leads to awareness. But there is also judgment. There is beauty. These have an effect. What is the nature, the substance of each of these ... whatever they are that I listed?
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Re: What do you think? 8 Questions about the universe

Post by h_k_s »

hallrick0 wrote: August 8th, 2020, 1:49 am If the observable universe had not manifested would sufficient preconditions necessarily have been absent?

If preconditions existed outside of what is observable what would the most basic effective characteristics of that state or force be?

What are the most basic reasonable implications about the nature of preexisting conditions based on observable physical law?

Which of those implications is most likely to cause human beings to attribute personal character or deity?

Is it possible to know, derive meaningful understanding of, and predict the future action of an unobservable force based on present observations of the material universe?

Is it necessary for such a precondition or force to remain intact subsequent to initiating material consequence?

Is it reasonable to ascribe continuing agency to this preexisting condition or unseen force?

How might an investigator reorient further investigation, self-concept, and disposition toward such a precondition or force if able to know its characteristics more concretely?
All we have is the Hubble space telescope. The rest is merely speculation.
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