Who dies at the moment of death?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:58 am Have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11?
I think I have. I've seen most of Michael Moore's films.

I think Saddam Hussein created this problem himself, by acting in a way that suggested, over and over, that he was hiding weapons. They would delay U.N. inspectors at the front door while carrying things out the back door. All that would have been necessary would be his cooperation with the U.N. inspectors before the fact, rather than being forced to allow them after he was deposed.

One of the things that bothers me about the George Floyd case is the recent body cams that showed him forcefully resisting being placed in the back seat of the police car. That's why he ended up outside the car and on the ground. This does not excuse the knee on his neck that killed him. But it suggests that cooperation with the arrest would have avoided being on the ground.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:42 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:58 am Have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11?
I think I have. I've seen most of Michael Moore's films.

I think Saddam Hussein created this problem himself, by acting in a way that suggested, over and over, that he was hiding weapons.
Wrong film.
They would delay U.N. inspectors at the front door while carrying things out the back door. All that would have been necessary would be his cooperation with the U.N. inspectors before the fact, rather than being forced to allow them after he was deposed.
Saddam gave the UN inspectors full access.
What sort of a world do you live in?

One of the things that bothers me about the George Floyd case is the recent body cams that showed him forcefully resisting being placed in the back seat of the police car.
Obvioulsy an offence that deserves summary execution on the street, eh?
That's why he ended up outside the car and on the ground. This does not excuse the knee on his neck that killed him. But it suggests that cooperation with the arrest would have avoided being on the ground.
As for the film I mentioned.
Ever hear of FLint Michegan?
evolution
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by evolution »

No one dies at the, so called, "moment of death".

The human body just stops breathing and pumping blood, and just keeps continually changing in shape and form. The human body never disappearing nor dying. Just, still, changing, or transforming.

The person never 'dies' neither. The person, however, stops changing, or as I say; Stops becoming anew. See, people do not become older, they just become newer. A person just stops becoming newer when the brain stops functioning about the time when the body stops breathing and stops pumping blood,
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Present awareness
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

evolution wrote: August 16th, 2020, 3:16 am No one dies at the, so called, "moment of death".

The human body just stops breathing and pumping blood, and just keeps continually changing in shape and form. The human body never disappearing nor dying. Just, still, changing, or transforming.

The person never 'dies' neither. The person, however, stops changing, or as I say; Stops becoming anew. See, people do not become older, they just become newer. A person just stops becoming newer when the brain stops functioning about the time when the body stops breathing and stops pumping blood,
I agree.

Life is a process of continual renew. The renewal stops at death, but the body keeps changing. At conception, two living cells merge and continue changing, so one is really born at that time either.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:42 am
Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2020, 4:58 am Have you seen Fahrenheit 9/11?
I think I have. I've seen most of Michael Moore's films.

I think Saddam Hussein created this problem himself, by acting in a way that suggested, over and over, that he was hiding weapons. They would delay U.N. inspectors at the front door while carrying things out the back door. All that would have been necessary would be his cooperation with the U.N. inspectors before the fact, rather than being forced to allow them after he was deposed.

One of the things that bothers me about the George Floyd case is the recent body cams that showed him forcefully resisting being placed in the back seat of the police car. That's why he ended up outside the car and on the ground. This does not excuse the knee on his neck that killed him. But it suggests that cooperation with the arrest would have avoided being on the ground.
I think I mean to say Fahrenheit 11/9. In the UK we use the date in the logical order, unlike the US, so 9/11 is actually 11/09/2021 Day month Year.
This means I tend to read american dates backwards.
The title of the film relates to the fateful day when the Blond Moron was announced as POTAS.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Sculptor1 »

evolution wrote: August 16th, 2020, 3:16 am No one dies at the, so called, "moment of death".

The human body just stops breathing and pumping blood, and just keeps continually changing in shape and form. The human body never disappearing nor dying. Just, still, changing, or transforming.

The person never 'dies' neither. The person, however, stops changing, or as I say; Stops becoming anew. See, people do not become older, they just become newer. A person just stops becoming newer when the brain stops functioning about the time when the body stops breathing and stops pumping blood,
So nothing important would happen if you vented your arteries today?
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 15th, 2020, 8:42 am
One of the things that bothers me about the George Floyd case is the recent body cams that showed him forcefully resisting being placed in the back seat of the police car.
Obvioulsy an offence that deserves summary execution on the street, eh?
Of course not. But George's behavior created a problem for the police. They had to arrest him and bring him to the station. But he would not allow them to put him in the car. If he allowed them to put him in the car and carry him to the police station, he would have suffered no harm. The question is what can the policeman do to carry out his responsibility when the suspect is actively resisting?

How do your Bobbies deal with that?
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Belindi »

Present awareness wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:24 pm Perhaps the biggest illusion that resides in our consciousness, is the illusion of ownership. My house, my car, my money, my body etc. are all attachments of mind which don’t exist in reality. It is only at the moment of death that we realize attachment to these things, has no power.
We take nothing with us when we go. Attachment to memories of whom we were and whom we think we are will evaporate like water on a hot skillet.

We don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul. We don’t have a body, we ARE a body.

What you endorse is better for world peace and alleviation of suffering than theories of existence that posit body and mind/soul as separate substances.

However even better is to stop worrying about essences of persons. A person is their life as lived, and there is no Heavenly Judge of it. There are human judges of lives well lived or badly lived and those narratives may or may not be helpful to you or me as we pick out our ways through our lives. There is no essence of a person or of anything else , there is only existences as processes that stops when the process stops.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 16th, 2020, 8:30 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 15th, 2020, 3:13 pm
Obvioulsy an offence that deserves summary execution on the street, eh?
Of course not. But George's behavior created a problem for the police. They had to arrest him and bring him to the station. But he would not allow them to put him in the car. If he allowed them to put him in the car and carry him to the police station, he would have suffered no harm. The question is what can the policeman do to carry out his responsibility when the suspect is actively resisting?

How do your Bobbies deal with that?
And why were they arresting him in the first place? Being in possession of curly hair in a urban area?
I assume you are aware that black people are disproportionately arrested.
Even Bobbies in the UK arrest and stop black people for no reason.
As far as I know that is no a "blacks are okay to kill" policy yet.
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Present awareness
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

Belindi wrote: August 17th, 2020, 5:30 am
Present awareness wrote: August 14th, 2020, 11:24 pm Perhaps the biggest illusion that resides in our consciousness, is the illusion of ownership. My house, my car, my money, my body etc. are all attachments of mind which don’t exist in reality. It is only at the moment of death that we realize attachment to these things, has no power.
We take nothing with us when we go. Attachment to memories of whom we were and whom we think we are will evaporate like water on a hot skillet.

We don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul. We don’t have a body, we ARE a body.

What you endorse is better for world peace and alleviation of suffering than theories of existence that posit body and mind/soul as separate substances.

However even better is to stop worrying about essences of persons. A person is their life as lived, and there is no Heavenly Judge of it. There are human judges of lives well lived or badly lived and those narratives may or may not be helpful to you or me as we pick out our ways through our lives. There is no essence of a person or of anything else , there is only existences as processes that stops when the process stops.
I agree with what you say about judges, Belindi and also about processes. I feel consciousness is simply a byproduct of those processes that convert oxygen into carbon dioxide and food into dung in all living matter.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Present awareness
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

h_k_s wrote: August 12th, 2020, 9:35 pm
Present awareness wrote: August 12th, 2020, 11:49 am

The concept of a soul is an interesting one. One might consider the life force which flows through all living things to be the “soul” of that life form. At the moment of conception, the life force contained in the sperm and the egg are combined in forming a new life form. Similar to lighting one candle with another candle, but what happens to the light when you blow the candle out?
What you said sounds like Buddhism.

Aristotle and Jesus did not comment on Buddhism.

I appreciate some of the rules of Buddhism, like the 5 forbidden professions.

Other than that I don't comment on Buddhism because I have not studied it in depth nor am I interested.

The general gist of all the Eastern Asian philosophies is to go with the flow and fit in. This is merely environmental. Places in Asia like India and China have always been teeming with masses of people therefore it is natural for those views to have crept into the Eastern Asian philosophies. I however have no use for them.
Christians believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit as it’s sometimes called. Eastern philosophers point to the same phenomenon of energy which permeates through all lifeforms and call it life force. They are both pointing to the same thing, but giving it different names.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 17th, 2020, 7:30 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 16th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Of course not. But George's behavior created a problem for the police. They had to arrest him and bring him to the station. But he would not allow them to put him in the car. If he allowed them to put him in the car and carry him to the police station, he would have suffered no harm. The question is what can the policeman do to carry out his responsibility when the suspect is actively resisting?

How do your Bobbies deal with that?
And why were they arresting him in the first place? Being in possession of curly hair in a urban area?
I assume you are aware that black people are disproportionately arrested.
Even Bobbies in the UK arrest and stop black people for no reason.
As far as I know that is no a "blacks are okay to kill" policy yet.
He was arrested for spending a counterfeit twenty dollar bill. And, yes, we know that black persons are arrested and treated differently than whites exhibiting the same behavior. That's a problem. It indicates unnecessary harms, so it is an issue of objective morality.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 17th, 2020, 12:23 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: August 17th, 2020, 7:30 am

And why were they arresting him in the first place? Being in possession of curly hair in a urban area?
I assume you are aware that black people are disproportionately arrested.
Even Bobbies in the UK arrest and stop black people for no reason.
As far as I know that is no a "blacks are okay to kill" policy yet.
He was arrested for spending a counterfeit twenty dollar bill. And, yes, we know that black persons are arrested and treated differently than whites exhibiting the same behavior. That's a problem. It indicates unnecessary harms, so it is an issue of objective morality.
No, It is evidence that there is no such thing as objective morality.
It is meaningless you append the term objective to things are are all about subjective values.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 17th, 2020, 1:34 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote: August 17th, 2020, 12:23 pm

He was arrested for spending a counterfeit twenty dollar bill. And, yes, we know that black persons are arrested and treated differently than whites exhibiting the same behavior. That's a problem. It indicates unnecessary harms, so it is an issue of objective morality.
No, It is evidence that there is no such thing as objective morality.
It is meaningless you append the term objective to things are are all about subjective values.
We know that different subjects hold different values. The question is whether we can progress beyond that point, to where we can say that the policeman's values were wrong. The goal is to change those values. If all we can say is that everyone's values are equally subjective and therefore equally right, then what have you left us with?
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Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by HighSchool Socrates »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?
It all depends on what your view of time is. If you believe that time is universal and that it goes in a straight line until infinity,then you would probably say the interactions, feelings, perspectives, and all the other things that make up a human being have died. However if you believe that the present, past and future all play out at the same time, no one has ever truly died. If you believe in god, you would believe that only the sinful mortal body has died, while the soul passes to heaven. etc.
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