Who dies at the moment of death?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by h_k_s »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?
Philosophy can only question, What is existence?

Aristotle called it the soul. This view is ancient Greek and Persian and subsequently influenced the Hebrew writers of the Babylonian period. Prior to this Babylonian period (6th Century BCE) there is no mention of it in the Tanakh (Old Testament).

Thus ancient Greek philosophy taught us we exist independently of our bodies somehow. This Greek world influence crept into early Christianity as well, and Jesus taught these Greek ideas himself.

Whether memory is dependent on our brains alone is hard to surmise. Certainly Alzheimers patients indicate that brain and memory are connected. This does suggest that without our brains and bodies we may be incapable of memory.

Towards the end of her 91.7 year life my mom could not remember anyone or anything. But she could still speak, have fun with other seniors at the memory assisted living center, and she seemed happy every day without any memories, up to the night of her death when she died peacefully in her sleep. There was no autopsy. Speculation was that her heart being old just stopped working.

She did not remember any of us, her adult children, nor of her former spouse who preceded her in death decades earlier.

Based on this anecdotal scientific evidence I am inclined to believe philosophically that memories are inseparably connected with the brain.

This means if we do have a soul, as Aristotle postulates and Jesus teaches, then in the future after death we will be unable to remember anything.
User avatar
Angel Trismegistus
Posts: 568
Joined: July 25th, 2020, 1:19 pm
Favorite Philosopher: William James
Location: New York City

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Angel Trismegistus »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?...
As I posted recently in the thread entitled "After-life":
Well, in death your body is certainly "as dead as a door nail" -- but are you your body without remainder? That is to say, are we bodies and nothing more? And how do you know this?

To paraphrase something C.S. Lewis wrote in his meditation on grief: If in death the person we knew "is not" anymore, then that person never was in the first place -- we merely mistook "a cloud of atoms" for a person.
Reductive materialism is a dead end. Pun intended.
Image
Jklint
Posts: 1719
Joined: February 23rd, 2012, 3:06 am

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Jklint »

The memory of ever having lived.
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Wossname »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm Present awareness » Yesterday, 5:00 pm

The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?

I think that when you die, the machinery that generates those memories of who you were, those ideas of who you might be, and your awareness of those thoughts and of the world currently around you now and how you feel about it, that machinery stops working. So those thoughts cease to be. Sadly, then, I fear that when you die, that is a permanent end to present awareness.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Gertie »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?
I think 'present awareness' is what the sense of being a Self amounts to, moment by moment. And as that correlates with brain activity, it's hard for me to believe it continues after brain death. The Big Sleep, dreamless, and no alarm clock.

But we don't understand consciousness, so you never know.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?
The person you are at the moment of death.

There is no "The might I might be." Once you're dead that's it. So make the most of your life while you've got it.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Oops, typo above. That should have read, "There is no the man I might be."
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

h_k_s wrote: August 11th, 2020, 9:34 pm
Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?

The memories stored in the brain will disappear as the cells die and our self identity is based on those memories of passed events. The past events themselves have already ceased to exist, so it may not be said that the past dies at the moment of our death. Certainly all future potential dies at the moment of death, but how can that which is not yet born, be said to die?
Philosophy can only question, What is existence?

Aristotle called it the soul. This view is ancient Greek and Persian and subsequently influenced the Hebrew writers of the Babylonian period. Prior to this Babylonian period (6th Century BCE) there is no mention of it in the Tanakh (Old Testament).

Thus ancient Greek philosophy taught us we exist independently of our bodies somehow. This Greek world influence crept into early Christianity as well, and Jesus taught these Greek ideas himself.

Whether memory is dependent on our brains alone is hard to surmise. Certainly Alzheimers patients indicate that brain and memory are connected. This does suggest that without our brains and bodies we may be incapable of memory.

Towards the end of her 91.7 year life my mom could not remember anyone or anything. But she could still speak, have fun with other seniors at the memory assisted living center, and she seemed happy every day without any memories, up to the night of her death when she died peacefully in her sleep. There was no autopsy. Speculation was that her heart being old just stopped working.

She did not remember any of us, her adult children, nor of her former spouse who preceded her in death decades earlier.

Based on this anecdotal scientific evidence I am inclined to believe philosophically that memories are inseparably connected with the brain.

This means if we do have a soul, as Aristotle postulates and Jesus teaches, then in the future after death we will be unable to remember anything.
The concept of a soul is an interesting one. One might consider the life force which flows through all living things to be the “soul” of that life form. At the moment of conception, the life force contained in the sperm and the egg are combined in forming a new life form. Similar to lighting one candle with another candle, but what happens to the light when you blow the candle out?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
The Beast
Posts: 1403
Joined: July 7th, 2013, 10:32 pm

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by The Beast »

Life is a process. The process will not die. The will is immaterial, and the process is its creation. As individuals we are the agents of the will, but we are one heartbeat. The heart exists, the heartbeat is its sound or some other measure of the heart. I like to be in the wave of the sound.
User avatar
Count Lucanor
Posts: 2318
Joined: May 6th, 2017, 5:08 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Umberto Eco
Location: Panama
Contact:

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?
You should ask what is implied in the statement "the man I was". Because that ultimately defines for you who dies.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
User avatar
h_k_s
Posts: 1243
Joined: November 25th, 2018, 12:09 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Aristotle
Location: Rocky Mountains

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by h_k_s »

Present awareness wrote: August 12th, 2020, 11:49 am
h_k_s wrote: August 11th, 2020, 9:34 pm

Philosophy can only question, What is existence?

Aristotle called it the soul. This view is ancient Greek and Persian and subsequently influenced the Hebrew writers of the Babylonian period. Prior to this Babylonian period (6th Century BCE) there is no mention of it in the Tanakh (Old Testament).

Thus ancient Greek philosophy taught us we exist independently of our bodies somehow. This Greek world influence crept into early Christianity as well, and Jesus taught these Greek ideas himself.

Whether memory is dependent on our brains alone is hard to surmise. Certainly Alzheimers patients indicate that brain and memory are connected. This does suggest that without our brains and bodies we may be incapable of memory.

Towards the end of her 91.7 year life my mom could not remember anyone or anything. But she could still speak, have fun with other seniors at the memory assisted living center, and she seemed happy every day without any memories, up to the night of her death when she died peacefully in her sleep. There was no autopsy. Speculation was that her heart being old just stopped working.

She did not remember any of us, her adult children, nor of her former spouse who preceded her in death decades earlier.

Based on this anecdotal scientific evidence I am inclined to believe philosophically that memories are inseparably connected with the brain.

This means if we do have a soul, as Aristotle postulates and Jesus teaches, then in the future after death we will be unable to remember anything.
The concept of a soul is an interesting one. One might consider the life force which flows through all living things to be the “soul” of that life form. At the moment of conception, the life force contained in the sperm and the egg are combined in forming a new life form. Similar to lighting one candle with another candle, but what happens to the light when you blow the candle out?
What you said sounds like Buddhism.

Aristotle and Jesus did not comment on Buddhism.

I appreciate some of the rules of Buddhism, like the 5 forbidden professions.

Other than that I don't comment on Buddhism because I have not studied it in depth nor am I interested.

The general gist of all the Eastern Asian philosophies is to go with the flow and fit in. This is merely environmental. Places in Asia like India and China have always been teeming with masses of people therefore it is natural for those views to have crept into the Eastern Asian philosophies. I however have no use for them.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

Count Lucanor wrote: August 12th, 2020, 5:48 pm
Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?
You should ask what is implied in the statement "the man I was". Because that ultimately defines for you who dies.
The implication of “the man I was” is that what we call the past, is gone, already dead so to speak. Who we were does not die at the moment of death, since who we were is already gone.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
Present awareness
Posts: 1389
Joined: February 3rd, 2014, 7:02 pm

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Present awareness »

Terrapin Station wrote: August 12th, 2020, 7:28 am
Present awareness wrote: August 11th, 2020, 12:00 pm The man I was, no longer “IS” and the man I might be, not yet here, so whom is it that dies at the moment of death?
The person you are at the moment of death.

There is no "The might I might be." Once you're dead that's it. So make the most of your life while you've got it.
I agree! However, as the body goes through the death process, the person you are is constantly changing. Perhaps when the last living brain cell sends out one final electrical impulse, could it be said that we have really died?
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: Who dies at the moment of death?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Present awareness wrote: August 12th, 2020, 10:07 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: August 12th, 2020, 7:28 am
The person you are at the moment of death.

There is no "The might I might be." Once you're dead that's it. So make the most of your life while you've got it.
I agree! However, as the body goes through the death process, the person you are is constantly changing. Perhaps when the last living brain cell sends out one final electrical impulse, could it be said that we have really died?
There's no good reason to believe that consciousness still obtains after one reaches a state where death would be pronounced. That wouldn't be the state where we've decided to pronounce death otherwise. In other words, we wouldn't pick a state where there are good reasons to believe that conscious experience still obtains as the state where we should medically pronounce death. So you'd only be dead where, among other things, consciousness ceases.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021