Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Hans-Werner Hammen
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by Hans-Werner Hammen »

Processes are entertained by things (Physis)
IF Sire I.Kant was "wrong about this and that" -
It does not logically follow that Sire i.Kant was wrong about everything.
all the more as space and time do not have mass,
iow are not even things, deer friend!
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RJG
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by RJG »

Marvin_Edwards wrote:The fact is that whenever choosing occurs, “I could have done otherwise“ will always be true.
If we don't choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then we don't actually "choose" anything. And if we have no choice in choosing, then "I could have done otherwise" would be FALSE.
popeye1945
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by popeye1945 »

Rig, right on, I could have done differently is impossible to know.
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LuckyR
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: April 12th, 2021, 4:42 am Rig, right on, I could have done differently is impossible to know.
Different people use "could" differently. Most agree that time only flows one direction, therefore the Original premise has different practical and theoretical conclusions.
"As usual... it depends."
popeye1945
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by popeye1945 »

Do expand! what does could mean when time flows backward?
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LuckyR
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by LuckyR »

popeye1945 wrote: April 12th, 2021, 4:19 pm Do expand! what does could mean when time flows backward?
First of all, time cannot go backwards, since there is no such thing as time. But purely for the sake of the argument,if you could go back in time you could go back to the time of a decision and choose to do it differently.
"As usual... it depends."
popeye1945
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by popeye1945 »

That's pretty far fetched, not even remotely falsifiable. How could you even begin to make such a statement when you cannot even know what your next thought is going to be?
Belindi
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: April 13th, 2021, 2:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: April 12th, 2021, 4:19 pm Do expand! what does could mean when time flows backward?
First of all, time cannot go backwards, since there is no such thing as time. But purely for the sake of the argument,if you could go back in time you could go back to the time of a decision and choose to do it differently.
That argument, Lucky, will not do. If you could go back in time you would go back more or less a different person from the person who back then chose so foolishly or so wisely.

True, you would have the same DNA , documentation, and dental history however there is no essentially unchanging Lucky.

If there were a supernatural Judge, she would judge us as dynamic processes, not as essences.There are profound implications for educational mores and methods.
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RJG
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by RJG »

Popeye1945 wrote:How could you [LuckyR] even begin to make such a statement when you cannot even know what your next thought is going to be?
Bingo! - we can’t know what we know until after we know it.

If we cannot know our thoughts before we know them, then we cannot choose our thoughts, nor those thoughts that choose our thoughts. Unfortunately, there are no free thoughts to be had. All the ones that we are conscious of, have already been scripted for us.
popeye1945
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by popeye1945 »

Weird isn't it, someone who covers this fully is Sam Harris, among other things he is a neurologist. So much for freewill and thus, SIN. Between this and quantum physics it's Alice in wonderland. I've seen a cat without a smile but a smile without a cat?
Belindi
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by Belindi »

popeye1945 wrote: April 13th, 2021, 11:29 am Weird isn't it, someone who covers this fully is Sam Harris, among other things he is a neurologist. So much for freewill and thus, SIN. Between this and quantum physics it's Alice in wonderland. I've seen a cat without a smile but a smile without a cat?
There is no definitive Cheshire Cat until the moment it dies then what defines the Cheshire Cat is only that there was a smile going on that correlated with other processes such that several processes seem to form a nexus that we call "The Cheshire Cat". And BTW SirJohn Tenniel did manage to draw a grin without a Cat.
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LuckyR
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: April 13th, 2021, 5:17 am
LuckyR wrote: April 13th, 2021, 2:12 am
popeye1945 wrote: April 12th, 2021, 4:19 pm Do expand! what does could mean when time flows backward?
First of all, time cannot go backwards, since there is no such thing as time. But purely for the sake of the argument,if you could go back in time you could go back to the time of a decision and choose to do it differently.
That argument, Lucky, will not do. If you could go back in time you would go back more or less a different person from the person who back then chose so foolishly or so wisely.

True, you would have the same DNA , documentation, and dental history however there is no essentially unchanging Lucky.

If there were a supernatural Judge, she would judge us as dynamic processes, not as essences.There are profound implications for educational mores and methods.
As I mentioned, going back in time is impossible, so my comments (and your's) are meaningless. But again for the sake of the argument, if you could go back in time, it makes more sense that you would be rewinding the tape (so you would be identical to who you were the first time) not as you suggest that you would progress with what you learned from your first try at decision making.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: April 13th, 2021, 9:08 am
Popeye1945 wrote:How could you [LuckyR] even begin to make such a statement when you cannot even know what your next thought is going to be?
Bingo! - we can’t know what we know until after we know it.

If we cannot know our thoughts before we know them, then we cannot choose our thoughts, nor those thoughts that choose our thoughts. Unfortunately, there are no free thoughts to be had. All the ones that we are conscious of, have already been scripted for us.
Huh? Making decisions does not require pre knowledge of thoughts.
"As usual... it depends."
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RJG
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by RJG »

LuckyR wrote:Huh? Making decisions does not require pre knowledge of thoughts.
Does choosing (making decisions) require thoughts? ...if so, then did you choose these thoughts? ...or does it take thoughts to choose?

If we don't choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then we don't actually "choose" anything!
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LuckyR
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Re: Yes, I Could Have Done Otherwise

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: April 13th, 2021, 2:20 pm
LuckyR wrote:Huh? Making decisions does not require pre knowledge of thoughts.
Does choosing (making decisions) require thoughts? ...if so, then did you choose these thoughts? ...or does it take thoughts to choose?

If we don't choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then we don't actually "choose" anything!
It's less about thoughts. If one menu only has one dish and another menu has numerous ones, the first case doesn't have a choice, regardless of your thoughts. Similarly if you have the second menu any selection is a choice whether you ponder it with tremendous thought or if you close your eyes and point without thoughts.
"As usual... it depends."
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