What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
NukeBan
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by NukeBan »

Perhaps we could also examine the opposite problem? Seeing reality too clearly is also a problem confronting many philosophers. A few examples....

Here in America almost half the country just voted for Trump. For the second time. One silver lining value of this event is that now we can kind of put a number on how many people are divorced from reality. And seeing that too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

On our roads about every other car insists on tailgating, risking their lives and those around them, in exchange for nothing. But such behavior is typically considered normal, unacceptable, unremarkable, unworthy of mention. Seeing the irrational insanity of this too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

And now the big one. We have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs at the ready to destroy modern civilization within minutes should a single human being press a single button a single time. And so few have any interest at all. Certainly NOT philosophers, who seem to present themselves as experts in the use of reason.

As example, we just finished a long heated presidential campaign here in the States, and nuclear weapons were mentioned about 3 times. And we can't blame that just on the candidates either, as I'm unaware of any professional journalist who pressed the question. And why would they, as the general public is not interested.

And then there's the REALLY big one. I continue, continue, continue to post stuff like this on philosophy forums, for years, knowing clearly as I do it's a complete waste of what little remains of my little life. So apparently, I fit right in to this silly madcap cartoon show. :-)
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Papus79
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Papus79 »

NukeBan wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:45 am Here in America almost half the country just voted for Trump. For the second time. One silver lining value of this event is that now we can kind of put a number on how many people are divorced from reality. And seeing that too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.
Considering the race to the bottom for candidates in the last two elections there's a good chance the most people voting either way were holding their noses (and I feel terrible for the Democrats watching the primary last year - couldn't have made it more obvious that name power was going to crush ideas). Both parties actually have voters defecting - plenty of Republicans jumping ship because of Trump, plenty of Democrats jumping ship because of left-wing authoritarianism, and those choices have a lot to do with what people are paying attention to and what signals are getting boosted in the media they consume.
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Atla
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Atla »

NukeBan wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:45 am Perhaps we could also examine the opposite problem? Seeing reality too clearly is also a problem confronting many philosophers. A few examples....

Here in America almost half the country just voted for Trump. For the second time. One silver lining value of this event is that now we can kind of put a number on how many people are divorced from reality. And seeing that too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

On our roads about every other car insists on tailgating, risking their lives and those around them, in exchange for nothing. But such behavior is typically considered normal, unacceptable, unremarkable, unworthy of mention. Seeing the irrational insanity of this too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

And now the big one. We have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs at the ready to destroy modern civilization within minutes should a single human being press a single button a single time. And so few have any interest at all. Certainly NOT philosophers, who seem to present themselves as experts in the use of reason.

As example, we just finished a long heated presidential campaign here in the States, and nuclear weapons were mentioned about 3 times. And we can't blame that just on the candidates either, as I'm unaware of any professional journalist who pressed the question. And why would they, as the general public is not interested.

And then there's the REALLY big one. I continue, continue, continue to post stuff like this on philosophy forums, for years, knowing clearly as I do it's a complete waste of what little remains of my little life. So apparently, I fit right in to this silly madcap cartoon show. :-)
It's taboo, but most humans just want to die deep down (preferably in a horrific way), so they already decided to end all civilization, which should happen in 20-30 years max.
The philosopher has to accept this and put it into a broader perspective. Was this outcome always inevitable, is there some bigger purpose to all this, what could that purpose be? Maybe everything is still happening the way it "should".
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Terrapin Station
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Terrapin Station »

NukeBan wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:45 am Perhaps we could also examine the opposite problem? Seeing reality too clearly is also a problem confronting many philosophers. A few examples....

Here in America almost half the country just voted for Trump. For the second time. One silver lining value of this event is that now we can kind of put a number on how many people are divorced from reality. And seeing that too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

On our roads about every other car insists on tailgating, risking their lives and those around them, in exchange for nothing. But such behavior is typically considered normal, unacceptable, unremarkable, unworthy of mention. Seeing the irrational insanity of this too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.

And now the big one. We have thousands of massive hydrogen bombs at the ready to destroy modern civilization within minutes should a single human being press a single button a single time. And so few have any interest at all. Certainly NOT philosophers, who seem to present themselves as experts in the use of reason.

As example, we just finished a long heated presidential campaign here in the States, and nuclear weapons were mentioned about 3 times. And we can't blame that just on the candidates either, as I'm unaware of any professional journalist who pressed the question. And why would they, as the general public is not interested.

And then there's the REALLY big one. I continue, continue, continue to post stuff like this on philosophy forums, for years, knowing clearly as I do it's a complete waste of what little remains of my little life. So apparently, I fit right in to this silly madcap cartoon show. :-)
You're talking only about value judgments above--or at least about things that hinge on value judgments. But there are no value judgments in reality (that is, that occur external to persons and their dispositions).

The issue of whether we can access reality is rather the issue of whether there is a real car to tailgate, whether we can more or less accurately perceive the real car (ceteris paribus), whether we can more or less accurately perceive the speed of the cars and the distance between them, etc. There's no reality of whether anyone should tailgate or not.
Fellowmater
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Fellowmater »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 3:42 pm It's taboo, but most humans just want to die deep down (preferably in a horrific way), so they already decided to end all civilization, which should happen in 20-30 years max.
The philosopher has to accept this and put it into a broader perspective. Was this outcome always inevitable, is there some bigger purpose to all this, what could that purpose be? Maybe everything is still happening the way it "should".
I have those questions to myself for years now. Still curious up to this day and counting.
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by baker »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 27th, 2020, 5:37 pmYou're talking only about value judgments above--or at least about things that hinge on value judgments. But there are no value judgments in reality (that is, that occur external to persons and their dispositions).
This doesn't matter, as long as people believe that there is objective morality, ie. that they believe that things and people have an inherent nature that can be objectively, impartially judged and that there are objective, suprapersonal standards by which to judge.
The issue of whether we can access reality is rather the issue of whether there is a real car to tailgate, whether we can more or less accurately perceive the real car (ceteris paribus), whether we can more or less accurately perceive the speed of the cars and the distance between them, etc.

There's no reality of whether anyone should tailgate or not.
For all practical intents and purposes, such a reality does exist. Humans are creating it with their value judgments.

If you don't tailgate or if you get upset over being tailgated, a portion of drivers will consider you a weakling, an inferior person. Such is the rule of the road.
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by baker »

NukeBan wrote: December 27th, 2020, 8:45 amOn our roads about every other car insists on tailgating, risking their lives and those around them, in exchange for nothing. But such behavior is typically considered normal, unacceptable, unremarkable, unworthy of mention. Seeing the irrational insanity of this too clearly can be disturbing, unsettling.
Participating in vehicular traffic is literally a matter of life and death, and everything inbetween. People are vividly reminded of that whenever they renew their car insurance.

I can think of a number of reasons how come some people seem to be completely unconcerned about the risks inherent in driving. Some are probably great believers in luck; some put thier faith in blaming others; some put their faith in their driving abilities assuming them to be superior; some are sure their cars will be controllable and safe in all circumstances. Some say it would be overwhelming to think of all the things that could go wrong when driving, so they even actively try to distract themselves when driving.

We live in a society that values "risk taking", aggressiveness, boldness. So it's no surprise that tailgating and many other dangerous driving practices (even though they are against traffic laws and are even illegal and punishable in some jurisdictions) are tacitly approved by society at large.
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by NukeBan »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 27th, 2020, 5:37 pmThe issue of whether we can access reality....
That's what I was addressing. If we can access the reality of human beings too clearly, we may not be that happy that we have such an ability. Sometimes it's more a case of ignorance being bliss.

As example, now that the recent election is over is kinda hard to ignore the fact that about half the country has a limited grasp of reality. This may not be a welcome realization.

My wife is going through this now. Since the election it's become unavoidably clear to her in a way that it wasn't before that she is surrounded by idiots and fools on every side, and there's not much she can do about it. I suppose she's always known that in a vague general unexamined kind of way, but now it's shoved in her face where she can't avoid it.

Sometimes philosophy shoves realization in your face that you might have preferred not to have. As example, we're all going to die. Well, ok, everybody knows that. But there are many different levels of knowing that, and most people most of the time are able to keep that knowing at safe distance. But if we have a serious illness, or do too much philosophy, we might lose the ability to maintain that safe distance.
NukeBan
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by NukeBan »

baker wrote: December 28th, 2020, 7:23 amWe live in a society that values "risk taking", aggressiveness, boldness. So it's no surprise that tailgating and many other dangerous driving practices (even though they are against traffic laws and are even illegal and punishable in some jurisdictions) are tacitly approved by society at large.
This is all true, and I agree I'm a fool to be surprised by this. Part of my silly brain still insists on evaluating human behavior using reason, when you'd think that after 68 years I would have figured out the folly of this. Whoa! It turns out that like everybody else, I am irrational and emotion based! Well, at least I fit in. :-)
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Terrapin Station »

baker wrote: December 28th, 2020, 6:58 am This doesn't matter, as long as people believe that there is objective morality, ie. that they believe that things and people have an inherent nature that can be objectively, impartially judged and that there are objective, suprapersonal standards by which to judge.
It's exactly what matters if we're talking about whether we're accessing reality and getting correct what it's like.
For all practical intents and purposes, such a reality does exist. Humans are creating it with their value judgments.
That's the argumentum ad populum fallacy.
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Terrapin Station »

NukeBan wrote: December 28th, 2020, 8:47 am
Terrapin Station wrote: December 27th, 2020, 5:37 pmThe issue of whether we can access reality....
That's what I was addressing. If we can access the reality of human beings too clearly, we may not be that happy that we have such an ability. Sometimes it's more a case of ignorance being bliss.

As example, now that the recent election is over is kinda hard to ignore the fact that about half the country has a limited grasp of reality.
You're ignoring that there are no normatives in reality. There is nothing in reality that tells you who you should vote for, for example. It depends, as an individual, on your subjective preferences, desires, concerns, etc.
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Papus79
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Papus79 »

Atla wrote: December 27th, 2020, 3:42 pm It's taboo, but most humans just want to die deep down (preferably in a horrific way), so they already decided to end all civilization, which should happen in 20-30 years max.
I can't help but think they're stuck in a particular rut. I've been through hell in many points of my life that I saw no way out of and perhaps making it through the depths of that helped me actually craft certain self-references and coping skills, or reach out for the best 'making people better' ideas from history that I could find whereas a lot of the people you're mentioning seem to be suspended in the middle, life's sort of just blandly unpleasant, every day's the same as is what's on TV and there isn't enough impetus to acquire new coping mechanisms (or worse - a bucket of crabs which would say that if you do go out and do that you've gone 'weird' and are failing in your social conformity).
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baker
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by baker »

Image
Terrapin Station wrote: December 28th, 2020, 9:24 am
baker wrote: December 28th, 2020, 6:58 am This doesn't matter, as long as people believe that there is objective morality, ie. that they believe that things and people have an inherent nature that can be objectively, impartially judged and that there are objective, suprapersonal standards by which to judge.
It's exactly what matters if we're talking about whether we're accessing reality and getting correct what it's like.
For all practical intents and purposes, such a reality does exist. Humans are creating it with their value judgments.
That's the argumentum ad populum fallacy.
You're ignoring the reality we live in.
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Papus79
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by Papus79 »

baker wrote: December 28th, 2020, 7:23 am We live in a society that values "risk taking", aggressiveness, boldness. So it's no surprise that tailgating and many other dangerous driving practices (even though they are against traffic laws and are even illegal and punishable in some jurisdictions) are tacitly approved by society at large.
So much of our trouble is that we haven't been able to write our software, at least thus far, and the kind of crazy that Dostoevsky often said we are comes as a result of having so much in us that was perfectly appropriate in the hell of the wild, much less appropriate in civil society and keeps threatening to drag us back to the hell of the wild. I bring it up because it's back on my mind again as a sort of perennial problem - ie. that tendencies toward psychopathy are more in line with ground-level physics than our higher values, and as Greta and I were comparing notes on earlier - it's a zero sum game between being shielded and weaponized enough to grapple with that psychopathy and the games it brings down on one hand and being able to take full advantage of the color-depth of perception and to be able to really open and maintain the real human capacity for efficient frontiers into ways in which we can have better things, give our own happiness more armaments, and really be able to explore each other's humanity. It's one of those things artists have been talking about for a long time - that you can take the dive right into the corporate or work world after high school or you can take the winding path which tends to get beat on by those who take the 'straight' path but which yields more balanced and rounded people.

Also in advance - that wasn't a lecture or a tacit assumption that these aren't things you already knew, just some thoughts it triggered.
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baker
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Re: What Are The Ramifications Of Not Being Able To Access Reality?

Post by baker »

Papus79 wrote: December 28th, 2020, 11:23 amSo much of our trouble is that we haven't been able to write our software, at least thus far, and the kind of crazy that Dostoevsky often said we are comes as a result of having so much in us that was perfectly appropriate in the hell of the wild, much less appropriate in civil society and keeps threatening to drag us back to the hell of the wild.
But maybe "civil society" is the aberration, a decadent, humanist pipe dream.

Have you seen Scorsese's "The age of innocence"? He said it's his most violent film. To be sure, there are no gangsters in it and nobody gets killed, and no other graphic scenes either. No graphic depictions of poverty, disease, no foul language. It's a good example of how human brutality can take on many faces, looking perfectly civilized.
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