The mind begs the question

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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:18 am
Atla wrote: April 21st, 2021, 2:13 pm
Consul wrote: April 21st, 2021, 1:52 pm Wrong, science has found tons of evidence that links phenomenal consciousness to neural mechanisms in animal brains.
Lol okay, then present one evidence.
This has been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by the effects of brain injuries, brain diseases, anaestethics, psychopharmaceuticals, and narcotics on mind and consciousness.
So you can't present one evidence for phenomenal consciousness. You can only present evidence for human consciousness behaviour, but a P-zombie could do that too.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:31 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 7:15 am
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 12:16 am
Terrapin Station wrote: April 21st, 2021, 4:50 pm


"Actual" versus "perceived" in that sense presupposes a preferred spatiotemporal situatedness. But there is no such thing.
It doesn't presuppose that, it's the absolute perspective vs the relative perspective. Science strives for objectivity, even if it's unattainable.
The whole point being that there is no "absolute perspective"--the whole idea of that is incoherent/nonsense. "Objectivity" doesn't denote something not relative. It doesn't denote something "absolute."
Objectivity / the absolute perspective is an ideal, that does denote something not relative. It's an ideal, not a literal perspective.
No, it doesn't denote something not relative. The objective world is relative. Ideals would just be someone's personal idea of what they prefer or expect for whatever reason. I don't prefer or expect something non-relative or "absolute." The world external to us (as well as internal to us) is relative.
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 2:41 pm
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:31 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 7:15 am
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 12:16 am
It doesn't presuppose that, it's the absolute perspective vs the relative perspective. Science strives for objectivity, even if it's unattainable.
The whole point being that there is no "absolute perspective"--the whole idea of that is incoherent/nonsense. "Objectivity" doesn't denote something not relative. It doesn't denote something "absolute."
Objectivity / the absolute perspective is an ideal, that does denote something not relative. It's an ideal, not a literal perspective.
No, it doesn't denote something not relative. The objective world is relative. Ideals would just be someone's personal idea of what they prefer or expect for whatever reason. I don't prefer or expect something non-relative or "absolute." The world external to us (as well as internal to us) is relative.
Saying that the world is relative, is also a statement from the objective/absolute perspective. We have this ideal of objectivity that we try to approach, we try to construct a picture that's as objective as we can make it.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 4:29 pm Saying that the world is relative, is also a statement from the objective/absolute perspective.
No, it isn't. It's from my perspective, obviously. It wouldn't be something you'd say, right? Not that any statement could even BE objective in the first place. Statements need semantic content, and semantic phenomena only occur mentally.
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Faustus5
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Faustus5 »

Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm
A scientific measurement actually MEASURES something.
A subject's report, whether verbal or otherwise, is a measurement of something.
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm You don't measure internal events, as neuroscience hasn't found a way to do that.
Brain scans are one way of measuring internal events. You aren't even remotely making an effort, are you?
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm Neuroscience can't tell whether or not internal events actually exist, it just takes it on faith.
No faith is involved. We can listen to subjects reporting that they are experiencing specific kinds of conscious events, while seeing what is happening inside of their bodies during their reports. Then we see if there are reliable consistencies where the same kinds of brain events lead to the same kinds of reports from subjects--and they do. That's how science has made such strides in explaining conscious experiences.

But all you're interested in doing is slapping your hands over your eyes and ears and effectively shouting "LA LA LA LA" because you aren't interested in learning anything. Pathetic, really.
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Consul »

Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:34 pm
Consul wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:18 amThis has been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by the effects of brain injuries, brain diseases, anaestethics, psychopharmaceuticals, and narcotics on mind and consciousness.
So you can't present one evidence for phenomenal consciousness. You can only present evidence for human consciousness behaviour, but a P-zombie could do that too.
What I've been arguing for is the dependence of P-consciousness on animal brains; and there is sufficient scientific evidence for that. (Humans are animals too.)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Consul »

Faustus5 wrote: March 15th, 2021, 5:49 pm
Gertie wrote: March 14th, 2021, 1:16 pmThat's why people talk of The Hard Problem of Consciousness.
SOME people. Remember, there is no agreement that the hard problem even exists or is coherent. It is still being debated and no one side has "won", to the degree any side "wins" in philosophy at all. I'm in the camp that thinks the hard problem is an artifact of really confused philosophy of mind that ought to be rejected.
QUOTE>
"The hard-problem view has a pinch of defeatism in it. I suspect that for some people it also has a pinch of religiosity. It is a keep-your-scientific-hands-off-my-mystery perspective. One conceptual difficulty with the hard-problem view is that it argues against any explanation of consciousness without knowing what explanations might arise. It is difficult to make a cogent argument against the unknown. Perhaps an
explanation exists such that, once we see what it is, once we understand it, we will find that it makes sense and accounts for consciousness."

(Graziano, Michael S. Consciousness and the Social Brain. New York: Oxford University Press, 2013. p. 7)
<QUOTE
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 5:04 pm
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 4:29 pm Saying that the world is relative, is also a statement from the objective/absolute perspective.
No, it isn't. It's from my perspective, obviously. It wouldn't be something you'd say, right? Not that any statement could even BE objective in the first place. Statements need semantic content, and semantic phenomena only occur mentally.
You don't seem to understand that objectivity is a shared ideal, an unattainable goal.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Faustus5 wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 5:45 pm
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm
A scientific measurement actually MEASURES something.
A subject's report, whether verbal or otherwise, is a measurement of something.
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm You don't measure internal events, as neuroscience hasn't found a way to do that.
Brain scans are one way of measuring internal events. You aren't even remotely making an effort, are you?
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm Neuroscience can't tell whether or not internal events actually exist, it just takes it on faith.
No faith is involved. We can listen to subjects reporting that they are experiencing specific kinds of conscious events, while seeing what is happening inside of their bodies during their reports. Then we see if there are reliable consistencies where the same kinds of brain events lead to the same kinds of reports from subjects--and they do. That's how science has made such strides in explaining conscious experiences.

But all you're interested in doing is slapping your hands over your eyes and ears and effectively shouting "LA LA LA LA" because you aren't interested in learning anything. Pathetic, really.
Brain scans don't measure the internal "conscious" events themselves, but measure external correlates of such assumed events. And from such scans we can for example try to reconstruct what someone may be dreaming about. It's like you hear about neuroimaging for the first time.

Subject's reports are also third-person reports of such assumed events, not the direct transmission of such events.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 10:18 am
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 1:34 pm
Consul wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 10:18 amThis has been demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by the effects of brain injuries, brain diseases, anaestethics, psychopharmaceuticals, and narcotics on mind and consciousness.
So you can't present one evidence for phenomenal consciousness. You can only present evidence for human consciousness behaviour, but a P-zombie could do that too.
What I've been arguing for is the dependence of P-consciousness on animal brains; and there is sufficient scientific evidence for that. (Humans are animals too.)
Yes you've been repeating this blatant lie for years, shows your character. There isn't a single shred of scientific evidence that has found P-consciousness, when comparing organism brains with lifeless stuff. All that was found is that brains behave like brains.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 10:32 am
Faustus5 wrote: March 15th, 2021, 5:49 pm
Gertie wrote: March 14th, 2021, 1:16 pmThat's why people talk of The Hard Problem of Consciousness.
SOME people. Remember, there is no agreement that the hard problem even exists or is coherent. It is still being debated and no one side has "won", to the degree any side "wins" in philosophy at all. I'm in the camp that thinks the hard problem is an artifact of really confused philosophy of mind that ought to be rejected.
QUOTE>
"The hard-problem view has a pinch of defeatism in it. I suspect that for some people it also has a pinch of religiosity. It is a keep-your-scientific-hands-off-my-mystery perspective. One conceptual difficulty with the hard-problem view is that it argues against any explanation of consciousness without knowing what explanations might arise. It is difficult to make a cogent argument against the unknown. Perhaps an
explanation exists such that, once we see what it is, once we understand it, we will find that it makes sense and accounts for consciousness."

(Graziano, Michael S. Consciousness and the Social Brain. New York: Oxford University Press, 2013. p. 7)
<QUOTE
Neat, but the Hard problem was solved ages ago, and of course in hindsight the explanation makes infinitely more sense.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 5:04 pm
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 4:29 pm Saying that the world is relative, is also a statement from the objective/absolute perspective.
No, it isn't. It's from my perspective, obviously. It wouldn't be something you'd say, right? Not that any statement could even BE objective in the first place. Statements need semantic content, and semantic phenomena only occur mentally.
You don't seem to understand that objectivity is a shared ideal, an unattainable goal.
What would you say that comment has to do with what I wrote (and that you quoted)?
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:14 pm
Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 5:04 pm
Atla wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 4:29 pm Saying that the world is relative, is also a statement from the objective/absolute perspective.
No, it isn't. It's from my perspective, obviously. It wouldn't be something you'd say, right? Not that any statement could even BE objective in the first place. Statements need semantic content, and semantic phenomena only occur mentally.
You don't seem to understand that objectivity is a shared ideal, an unattainable goal.
What would you say that comment has to do with what I wrote (and that you quoted)?
I said for about the third time that this "objective perspective" of science, that you keep bashing, was never meant to be taken literally.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:14 pm
Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:23 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 22nd, 2021, 5:04 pm

No, it isn't. It's from my perspective, obviously. It wouldn't be something you'd say, right? Not that any statement could even BE objective in the first place. Statements need semantic content, and semantic phenomena only occur mentally.
You don't seem to understand that objectivity is a shared ideal, an unattainable goal.
What would you say that comment has to do with what I wrote (and that you quoted)?
I said for about the third time that this "objective perspective" of science, that you keep bashing, was never meant to be taken literally.
Okay, but how would that indicate, per what I said and what you quoted, that I "don't seem to understand that objectivity is a 'shared ideal'"? I didn't say anything that had anything to do with that.
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 24th, 2021, 4:22 pm
Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:19 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 1:14 pm
Atla wrote: April 23rd, 2021, 12:23 pm
You don't seem to understand that objectivity is a shared ideal, an unattainable goal.
What would you say that comment has to do with what I wrote (and that you quoted)?
I said for about the third time that this "objective perspective" of science, that you keep bashing, was never meant to be taken literally.
Okay, but how would that indicate, per what I said and what you quoted, that I "don't seem to understand that objectivity is a 'shared ideal'"? I didn't say anything that had anything to do with that.
Whatever, then you changed the topic for like the third or fourth time in a few comments.
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