The mind begs the question

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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:11 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:09 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:04 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:00 am
You don't understand the nature of the discussion, and judging by our commenting history, you never will.

Yes, human consciousness (or organism consciousness is general) is to the human/organism as engine is to the car.
The discussion is about phenomenal consciousness, and there is no reason to believe that it's the same thing.
Why don't you take a breath and try to actually answer I set for you, rather than resort to insulting behaviour?
If simple facts are insults then so be it. I already answered your objection btw.
I have not made any objections.
I simply asked a question that you have failed to attempt.
And once again you resport to insults as a first port of call.
This just makes me think that you cannot answer the question because you have no answer to it.
As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
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Sculptor1
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Sculptor1 »

Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:11 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:09 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:04 am

Why don't you take a breath and try to actually answer I set for you, rather than resort to insulting behaviour?
If simple facts are insults then so be it. I already answered your objection btw.
I have not made any objections.
I simply asked a question that you have failed to attempt.
And once again you resport to insults as a first port of call.
This just makes me think that you cannot answer the question because you have no answer to it.
As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
Okay, run away if you wish. You clearly have no way to answer my question.
:lol:
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:13 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:11 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:09 am
If simple facts are insults then so be it. I already answered your objection btw.
I have not made any objections.
I simply asked a question that you have failed to attempt.
And once again you resport to insults as a first port of call.
This just makes me think that you cannot answer the question because you have no answer to it.
As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
Okay, run away if you wish. You clearly have no way to answer my question.
:lol:
As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:38 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:13 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:24 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:11 am This just makes me think that you cannot answer the question because you have no answer to it.
As I said I already answered your objection.
You clearly have no way to answer my question.
As I said I already answered your objection.

I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:38 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:13 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:24 am
As I said I already answered your objection.
You clearly have no way to answer my question.
As I said I already answered your objection.

I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
I don't bother with Sculptor, what's the point. But for the record: drugs and brain injuries change human consciousness, kinda how oil or damage changes the engine of a car.

The phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place. There is zero scientific explanation, evidence for it's presence in organisms. And why do we assume that engines of cars lack this 'what it's like' happening? Totally unscientific belief.

Now Faustus will make a failed attempt to provide such evidence.
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Sculptor1
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 8th, 2021, 11:35 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:38 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 8th, 2021, 10:13 am
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 9:24 am
As I said I already answered your objection.
You clearly have no way to answer my question.
As I said I already answered your objection.

I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
Yes, Atla feels alone and so is defensive.
He can't answer a simple question.
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Consul »

Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:44 pmThe phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place.
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:44 pmThe phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place.
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
That's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.

But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:36 am
Consul wrote: April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:44 pmThe phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place.
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
That's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.

But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
When you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?

Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
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Faustus5
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Faustus5 »

Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:36 am And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
You're treating consciousness as if it is like mass or charge, which would be a great explanation for why you remain endlessly confused about this subject. I simply can't imagine a more wrong headed approach.

Here's how you "measure" phenomenal consciousness: ask a subject to tell you when they are experiencing a specific kind of conscious experience and watch what happened in their body which lead to them telling you this. We do this all the time.
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:54 am
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:36 am
Consul wrote: April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Atla wrote: April 8th, 2021, 12:44 pmThe phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place.
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
That's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.

But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
When you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?

Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
By "why" I just mean the latter. How, how come.

We already established that your view doesn't address the problem, you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy. Saying "different" is not enough. Science has never found any evidence that the difference between living and non-living things would/could/should amount to phenomenal consciousness.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Faustus5 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:02 am
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:36 am And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
You're treating consciousness as if it is like mass or charge, which would be a great explanation for why you remain endlessly confused about this subject. I simply can't imagine a more wrong headed approach.

Here's how you "measure" phenomenal consciousness: ask a subject to tell you when they are experiencing a specific kind of conscious experience and watch what happened in their body which lead to them telling you this. We do this all the time.
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:05 am
Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:54 am
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:36 am
Consul wrote: April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pm

Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
That's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.

But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
When you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?

Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
By "why" I just mean the latter. How, how come.

We already established that your view doesn't address the problem, you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy. Saying "different" is not enough. Science has never found any evidence that the difference between living and non-living things would/could/should amount to phenomenal consciousness.
Why wouldn't brains be a difference that should amount to phenomenal consciousness?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Terrapin Station »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:49 am you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy.
Re this patronizing bit of nonsense, by the way, it's that I don't agree that it's some big problem. The notion that it is relies on a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:52 am
Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:49 am you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy.
Re this patronizing bit of nonsense, by the way, it's that I don't agree that it's some big problem. The notion that it is relies on a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.
It's a fact that it's a big problem, not an opinion. If you don't see this, then the misunderstandings and misconceptions are yours, in other words you are ignorant. Which means that you end up being the patronizing one.
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