As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:11 amI have not made any objections.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:09 amIf simple facts are insults then so be it. I already answered your objection btw.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:04 amWhy don't you take a breath and try to actually answer I set for you, rather than resort to insulting behaviour?Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:00 am
You don't understand the nature of the discussion, and judging by our commenting history, you never will.
Yes, human consciousness (or organism consciousness is general) is to the human/organism as engine is to the car.
The discussion is about phenomenal consciousness, and there is no reason to believe that it's the same thing.
I simply asked a question that you have failed to attempt.
And once again you resport to insults as a first port of call.
This just makes me think that you cannot answer the question because you have no answer to it.
The mind begs the question
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Re: The mind begs the question
- Sculptor1
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Re: The mind begs the question
Okay, run away if you wish. You clearly have no way to answer my question.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:24 amAs I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
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Re: The mind begs the question
As I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 10:13 amOkay, run away if you wish. You clearly have no way to answer my question.Atla wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 9:24 amAs I said I already answered your objection. And you are proving that you don't understand the nature of the discussion.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: The mind begs the question
I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: The mind begs the question
I don't bother with Sculptor, what's the point. But for the record: drugs and brain injuries change human consciousness, kinda how oil or damage changes the engine of a car.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 11:35 am
I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
The phenomenal consciousness 'content', the 'what it's like experience' changes accordingly with drugs and brain injuries. Which doesn't address why there is any phenomenal consciousness in the first place. There is zero scientific explanation, evidence for it's presence in organisms. And why do we assume that engines of cars lack this 'what it's like' happening? Totally unscientific belief.
Now Faustus will make a failed attempt to provide such evidence.
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Re: The mind begs the question
Yes, Atla feels alone and so is defensive.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 8th, 2021, 11:35 am
I think all opportunities for learning or enlightenment, in this exchange, have ceased, yes?
He can't answer a simple question.
- Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
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Re: The mind begs the question
That's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.Consul wrote: ↑April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pmHere's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
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Re: The mind begs the question
When you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?Atla wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 7:36 amThat's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.Consul wrote: ↑April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pmHere's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
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Re: The mind begs the question
You're treating consciousness as if it is like mass or charge, which would be a great explanation for why you remain endlessly confused about this subject. I simply can't imagine a more wrong headed approach.
Here's how you "measure" phenomenal consciousness: ask a subject to tell you when they are experiencing a specific kind of conscious experience and watch what happened in their body which lead to them telling you this. We do this all the time.
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Re: The mind begs the question
By "why" I just mean the latter. How, how come.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 7:54 amWhen you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?Atla wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 7:36 amThat's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.Consul wrote: ↑April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pmHere's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
We already established that your view doesn't address the problem, you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy. Saying "different" is not enough. Science has never found any evidence that the difference between living and non-living things would/could/should amount to phenomenal consciousness.
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Re: The mind begs the question
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.Faustus5 wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 8:02 amYou're treating consciousness as if it is like mass or charge, which would be a great explanation for why you remain endlessly confused about this subject. I simply can't imagine a more wrong headed approach.
Here's how you "measure" phenomenal consciousness: ask a subject to tell you when they are experiencing a specific kind of conscious experience and watch what happened in their body which lead to them telling you this. We do this all the time.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question
Why wouldn't brains be a difference that should amount to phenomenal consciousness?Atla wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 8:05 amBy "why" I just mean the latter. How, how come.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 7:54 amWhen you ask "why" are you asking in the sense of a purpose for it?Atla wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 7:36 amThat's not really an answer, more like a failed philosopher's attempt to justify his paycheck. Yes, it's a no-brainer that organism consciousness was shaped for survival purposes by evolution.Consul wrote: ↑April 14th, 2021, 9:47 pm
Here's an answer by Colin McGinn: https://www.colinmcginn.net/why-does-co ... ess-exist/
But that doesn't address why there is phenomenal consciousness. And if we assume that organisms have this, but non-living things do not, then science should be able to measure this extra something in organisms. But so far, science has found nothing.
Are you asking in the sense of simply explaining what the source of it is? If the latter, consciousness is simply the properties of the particular materials, in particular structures, undergoing particular processes (so a subset of brain functions, basically), from the spatiotemporal reference "point" of the very same dynamic relations of materials. The "something 'extra'" is simply different materials, different structures, different processes.
We already established that your view doesn't address the problem, you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy. Saying "different" is not enough. Science has never found any evidence that the difference between living and non-living things would/could/should amount to phenomenal consciousness.
- Terrapin Station
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Re: The mind begs the question
Re this patronizing bit of nonsense, by the way, it's that I don't agree that it's some big problem. The notion that it is relies on a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 8:49 am you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy.
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Re: The mind begs the question
It's a fact that it's a big problem, not an opinion. If you don't see this, then the misunderstandings and misconceptions are yours, in other words you are ignorant. Which means that you end up being the patronizing one.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 8:52 amRe this patronizing bit of nonsense, by the way, it's that I don't agree that it's some big problem. The notion that it is relies on a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 17th, 2021, 8:49 am you are ignorant about the central problem of Western philosophy.
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