The mind begs the question

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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Terrapin Station wrote: April 18th, 2021, 6:07 pm
Atla wrote: April 18th, 2021, 1:23 am
Terrapin Station wrote: April 17th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:48 pm "Philosophical problem" and "scientific problem" are perfectly common expressions,
Sure. No problem with that.
where it's usually considered a fact that there's a problem.
"Commonly considered" doesn't amount to "correct." It's always an opinion that anything is a problem, regardless of whether anyone believes that it can somehow be other than an opinion or not.
According to you, there are no facts of any kind then. For example there are no "scientific facts", only consensus opinions shared by most people.

That's correct on some level, but on the relevant level of discussion you are misusing the words fact and problem.
You're not thinking that something becomes a fact due to consensus or agreement are you? (That is, aside from the fact that there is a consensus or an agreement.)
Whatever, if you don't know what expressions like "scientific problem" or "philosophical problem" typically mean, use Google. 500k+ hits each.
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Faustus5
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:09 am
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.
Hate to break it to you, but nobodies on random Internet discussion forums are not now and never will be in a position to dictate what does and does not constitute a "scientific measurement". That determination is up to scientists, specifically here, cognitive neuroscientists. And they are perfectly happy with the reports of subjects regarding their subjective experiences being scientific data in good standing. If you have a science based reason for thinking they are mistaken (you don't), please do submit your thoughts to the appropriate peer reviewed journal so the scientific community can be bathed in your superior wisdom.

As for the "taking it on faith" part, if said subjects' reports consistently pair up with the same kinds of internal events from subject to subject (and they do), no faith whatsoever is involved.
Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Faustus5 wrote: April 19th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:09 am
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.
Hate to break it to you, but nobodies on random Internet discussion forums are not now and never will be in a position to dictate what does and does not constitute a "scientific measurement". That determination is up to scientists, specifically here, cognitive neuroscientists. And they are perfectly happy with the reports of subjects regarding their subjective experiences being scientific data in good standing. If you have a science based reason for thinking they are mistaken (you don't), please do submit your thoughts to the appropriate peer reviewed journal so the scientific community can be bathed in your superior wisdom.

As for the "taking it on faith" part, if said subjects' reports consistently pair up with the same kinds of internal events from subject to subject (and they do), no faith whatsoever is involved.
A scientific measurement actually MEASURES something.
You don't measure internal events, as neuroscience hasn't found a way to do that. It can only measure external correlates and collect reports. Neuroscience can't tell whether or not internal events actually exist, it just takes it on faith.
That's the the problem, shows that you never once in your life stopped to think about it.
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Atla wrote: April 18th, 2021, 4:12 pm Doesn't matter whether phenomenal subjectivity makes sense to you outside the biological sphere or not. In science we follow the evidence, or lack thereof. And the lack of evidence suggests that phenomenal subjectivity is probably universal.
No, if "we follow the evidence, or lack thereof," we find no scientific justification for the panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 11:30 am No, if "we follow the evidence, or lack thereof," we find no scientific justification for the panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness.

Nor do we find "scientific justification" to dismiss the "panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness". There is none in either case, I suspect. Such a matter is outside the bailiwick of science. Consciousness might be ineluctably linked to our physical bodies, and it might be that it can be supported by different platforms than biological human bodies. We don't know. So we cannot say, correctly, that "nonbiological consciousness" does or does not, can or cannot, exist.

But surely you know this?
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 11:30 am
Atla wrote: April 18th, 2021, 4:12 pm Doesn't matter whether phenomenal subjectivity makes sense to you outside the biological sphere or not. In science we follow the evidence, or lack thereof. And the lack of evidence suggests that phenomenal subjectivity is probably universal.
No, if "we follow the evidence, or lack thereof," we find no scientific justification for the panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness.
In that case we find no scientific justification for biological phenomenal consciousness either.
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 20th, 2021, 11:58 amNor do we find "scientific justification" to dismiss the "panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness".
Yes, we do, because, for example, there aren't any physicochemical structures and processes in rocks or stones that can plausibly be regarded as sensory systems, let alone as ones capable of realizing subjective sentience.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:07 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 20th, 2021, 11:58 amNor do we find "scientific justification" to dismiss the "panpsychistic belief in nonbiological consciousness".
Yes, we do, because, for example, there aren't any physicochemical structures and processes in rocks or stones that can plausibly be regarded as sensory systems, let alone as ones capable of realizing subjective sentience.
So, because you know of no platform (other than a biological human one) that could support consciousness, there is no such platform? You're that sure? How?
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:29 pm
Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:07 pmYes, we do, because, for example, there aren't any physicochemical structures and processes in rocks or stones that can plausibly be regarded as sensory systems, let alone as ones capable of realizing subjective sentience.
So, because you know of no platform (other than a biological human one) that could support consciousness, there is no such platform? You're that sure? How?
Unless panpsychists succeed in identifying mechanisms in nonbiological entities which are scientifically plausible "platforms" of consciousness, I'm justified in rejecting their belief in nonbiological consciousness.
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm
Faustus5 wrote: April 19th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:09 am
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.
Hate to break it to you, but nobodies on random Internet discussion forums are not now and never will be in a position to dictate what does and does not constitute a "scientific measurement". That determination is up to scientists, specifically here, cognitive neuroscientists. And they are perfectly happy with the reports of subjects regarding their subjective experiences being scientific data in good standing. If you have a science based reason for thinking they are mistaken (you don't), please do submit your thoughts to the appropriate peer reviewed journal so the scientific community can be bathed in your superior wisdom.

As for the "taking it on faith" part, if said subjects' reports consistently pair up with the same kinds of internal events from subject to subject (and they do), no faith whatsoever is involved.
A scientific measurement actually MEASURES something.
You don't measure internal events, as neuroscience hasn't found a way to do that. It can only measure external correlates and collect reports. Neuroscience can't tell whether or not internal events actually exist, it just takes it on faith.
That's the the problem, shows that you never once in your life stopped to think about it.
Science can't measure the properties of anything from the spatiotemporal situatedness of being the thing that's measured. And the spatiotemporal situatedness of being the thing that's measured always has unique properties from that situatedness. We're ALWAYS just measuring correlations to those unique properties. This isn't at all something exclusive to mental phenomena. So that doesn't work as an objection, unless you're going to equally object to all scientific measurement period.
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:07 pmYes, we do, because, for example, there aren't any physicochemical structures and processes in rocks or stones that can plausibly be regarded as sensory systems, let alone as ones capable of realizing subjective sentience.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 20th, 2021, 1:29 pm So, because you know of no platform (other than a biological human one) that could support consciousness, there is no such platform? You're that sure? How?
Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 3:56 pm Unless panpsychists succeed in identifying mechanisms in nonbiological entities which are scientifically plausible "platforms" of consciousness, I'm justified in rejecting their belief in nonbiological consciousness.

So, unless those who disagree with you provide evidence, of a standard specified by you, you are justified in rejecting their hypotheses? You assert - without justification - that your beliefs must stand until someone else conclusively refutes them for you. I think it might be worth reviewing your understanding of justification, and of the principles of (logical and scientific) intellectual inquiry.
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Consul
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 21st, 2021, 7:31 am
Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 3:56 pm Unless panpsychists succeed in identifying mechanisms in nonbiological entities which are scientifically plausible "platforms" of consciousness, I'm justified in rejecting their belief in nonbiological consciousness.
So, unless those who disagree with you provide evidence, of a standard specified by you, you are justified in rejecting their hypotheses? You assert - without justification - that your beliefs must stand until someone else conclusively refutes them for you. I think it might be worth reviewing your understanding of justification, and of the principles of (logical and scientific) intellectual inquiry.
The justificational standard panpsychists are expected to meet is pretty simple: Observe and scrutinize nonbiological objects, and see if you can find mechanisms therein which can plausibly function as realizers of subjective sentience/experience! If they cannot find any, then I am justified in rejecting their hypothesis. Have they found any? No, they haven't!
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Consul wrote: April 21st, 2021, 10:32 am If they cannot find any, then I am justified in rejecting their hypothesis.
I cannot see a logical justification for rejecting (or accepting) any hypothesis without evidence to support your conclusion. You have no evidence to support your unsubstantiated beliefs. You reject the hypothesis solely based on the lack of evidence to support it, even though there is no evidence to refute it either. Illogical, Captain.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

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Terrapin Station wrote: April 21st, 2021, 7:29 am
Atla wrote: April 19th, 2021, 11:58 pm
Faustus5 wrote: April 19th, 2021, 4:54 pm
Atla wrote: April 17th, 2021, 8:09 am
Hate to break it to you, but that's not a scientific measurement. Yes we can measure how the brain changes, but we can only take it on faith that phenomenal consciousness goes with it.
Hate to break it to you, but nobodies on random Internet discussion forums are not now and never will be in a position to dictate what does and does not constitute a "scientific measurement". That determination is up to scientists, specifically here, cognitive neuroscientists. And they are perfectly happy with the reports of subjects regarding their subjective experiences being scientific data in good standing. If you have a science based reason for thinking they are mistaken (you don't), please do submit your thoughts to the appropriate peer reviewed journal so the scientific community can be bathed in your superior wisdom.

As for the "taking it on faith" part, if said subjects' reports consistently pair up with the same kinds of internal events from subject to subject (and they do), no faith whatsoever is involved.
A scientific measurement actually MEASURES something.
You don't measure internal events, as neuroscience hasn't found a way to do that. It can only measure external correlates and collect reports. Neuroscience can't tell whether or not internal events actually exist, it just takes it on faith.
That's the the problem, shows that you never once in your life stopped to think about it.
Science can't measure the properties of anything from the spatiotemporal situatedness of being the thing that's measured. And the spatiotemporal situatedness of being the thing that's measured always has unique properties from that situatedness. We're ALWAYS just measuring correlations to those unique properties. This isn't at all something exclusive to mental phenomena. So that doesn't work as an objection, unless you're going to equally object to all scientific measurement period.
This idea of yours has already been addressed in some other topic too. The properties that science measures don't vary depending on spatiotemporal situatedness, they are not unique. Only their spatiotemporal situatedness is unique.
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Atla
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Re: The mind begs the question

Post by Atla »

Consul wrote: April 21st, 2021, 10:32 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 21st, 2021, 7:31 am
Consul wrote: April 20th, 2021, 3:56 pm Unless panpsychists succeed in identifying mechanisms in nonbiological entities which are scientifically plausible "platforms" of consciousness, I'm justified in rejecting their belief in nonbiological consciousness.
So, unless those who disagree with you provide evidence, of a standard specified by you, you are justified in rejecting their hypotheses? You assert - without justification - that your beliefs must stand until someone else conclusively refutes them for you. I think it might be worth reviewing your understanding of justification, and of the principles of (logical and scientific) intellectual inquiry.
The justificational standard panpsychists are expected to meet is pretty simple: Observe and scrutinize nonbiological objects, and see if you can find mechanisms therein which can plausibly function as realizers of subjective sentience/experience! If they cannot find any, then I am justified in rejecting their hypothesis. Have they found any? No, they haven't!
Science has found zero evidence that links phenomenal consciousness to mechanisms that realize subjective sentience/experience.

You've been at this denial stage for years Consul, why don't you just skip it instead and investigate the fundamental assumptions of Western civilization about the nature of reality?
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