Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

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RJG
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Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by RJG »

Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe

For a finite object to exist, it must exist somewhere (some place in space). It can't exist nowhere. Existing nowhere means that it does not exist.

For example, we can say that my finite shoes exist within the finite space within a finite shoebox. But, if this shoebox exists nowhere, then the shoebox does not exist, which means neither do my finite shoes.

And we can take this further and say "My finite shoebox exists within the finite space of my finite closet which exists within the finite space within my finite house". But again, if this house exists nowhere, then the house does not exist, which means neither does the closet, the shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

And we can take this a bit further and say "My finite house exists within the finite space within our finite universe. And but again, if our universe exists nowhere, then the universe does not exist, which means neither does the house, closet, shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

A finite object requires a space to exist in. If it exists nowhere, then it doesn't exist. If our universe is finite, then it exists somewhere, not nowhere. And if it exists somewhere, then this somewhere is outside the universe which thus defeats the definition of universe.

If the universe (space) were not infinite, then there would be no space for finite objects to exist. -- My finite shoes exist; therefore, infinite space exists.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Steve3007 »

You've done this before in various previous topics - telling us that the universe is like a box and then saying that the box must exist inside something. You're simply asserting that the universe is like one of the objects in the universe and noting that those objects have an inside and an outside. That assertion doesn't constitute an argument.
RJG wrote:If our universe is finite, then it exists somewhere, not nowhere.
No, by definition, it doesn't. That would only be true if it was an object, like a box. As noted numerous times before, it's perfectly logically possible for the universe to consist of a finite amount of space (i.e. to be such that a finite number of objects would be needed to completely fill it up) but to be unbounded in the sense that you could carry on moving in a straight line forever without hitting a boundary.
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RJG
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:That would only be true if it was an object, like a box. As noted numerous times before, it's perfectly logically possible for the universe to consist of a finite amount of space (i.e. to be such that a finite number of objects would be needed to completely fill it up) but to be unbounded in the sense that you could carry on moving in a straight line forever without hitting a boundary.
I assume you are referring to the false equivalency phrase ("finite but unbounded") commonly used by those trying to justify the illogical/irrational position that a 'finite' object/universe can somehow exist "no-where", ...yes?

Falsely conflating the "infinite travel" around a finite object as the explanation of finite objects existing "no-where" is wholly non-sensical. There is no logic that connects "infinite travel" to meaning "existing no-where".

Without 'infinite' space (not travel!), there would be no place for 'finite' objects to exist!
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG wrote:I assume you are referring to the false equivalency phrase ("finite but unbounded") commonly used by those trying to justify the illogical/irrational position that a 'finite' object/universe can somehow exist "no-where", ...yes?
No.
Falsely conflating the "infinite travel" around a finite object as the explanation of finite objects existing "no-where" is wholly non-sensical. There is no logic that connects "infinite travel" to meaning "existing no-where".
I don't see any connection between what you've said here and what I said. Was it was meant as a reply to the part of my post that you quoted?
Without 'infinite' space (not travel!), there would be no place for 'finite' objects to exist!
I disagree, obviously.

Out of interest: Do you remember any of the times when we've discussed this before?
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

RJG wrote: April 19th, 2021, 7:39 am Existing nowhere means that it does not exist.

I suspect that you have just described a universe that contains only the thing that exists, and nothing else. It doesn't mean the thing does not exist. For words that mean the thing doesn't exist, you might try "the thing does not exist". 🙂👍
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Terrapin Station »

The object IS the somewhere. Or we could say that the somewhere obtains as the object.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:Out of interest: Do you remember any of the times when we've discussed this before?
Yes, we've been discussing these types of arguments for years. You stick with your empiricist views and I stick with my rationalist views. You trust your senses more than math/logic, and I trust math/logic more than I do my senses. I can't convince you, and you can't convince me. And round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG wrote:You trust your senses more than math/logic, and I trust math/logic more than I do my senses.
Obviously my view is that the above is not true and that you don't really seem to understand what logic is and presumably don't really understand how mathematics is used as the language of science.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:Obviously my view is that the above is not true...
Obviously, from your view, of course!
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG wrote:Obviously, from your view, of course!
Yes, I consider my point of view to give greater visibility of what I do and do not trust.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:Yes, I consider my point of view to give greater visibility of what I do and do not trust.
My words too (...we each both trust our own views). But our paths to truth are different.
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Re: Finite Objects are Self-Evident Proof of an Infinite Universe.

Post by Steve3007 »

RJG wrote:My words too (...we each both trust our own views).
I was referring to you telling me I trust my senses more than math/logic.
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