Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

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popeye1945
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Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by popeye1945 »

We as well as our ancestors have always known that the natural world is meaningless, we are caught in a mercilous system. Life on the planet has brought meaning to desolation, has brought empathy, compassion, love and understanding. The observation of a harsh world makes it difficult to escape this reality. life is meaningless and lives upon itself, OUROBOROS, the snake consuming its own tail is this statement made symbolic. These positive terates do not belong solely to us but can be seen in many life forms, we belong to a family tree of organisms that are our relatives. Carl Sagan's statement comes to mind, "We are cousins to the trees, made of the same stuff, arranged into a different order."


Many people and institutions struggle today to maintain our ignorance and aid us if you will to live in a delusion. The methods used to maintain ignorance in our ancestors is one can have simpathy with, their understanding of their world was just about nil. It is humanities greatest shame to continue believeing what our acestors did, we cannot claim the ignorance that humbled our ancestor, and it is now a mark of cowardice to follow that to well worn path. Much of what humanity has created is in reaction to this reality that life is meaningless, that nature cares not for the individual but only for species. Religion, philosophy, society and culture are direct responses to the indifference of nature. Nietzsche believed I think that humanity can not handle the harsh truth, that it cannot survive but in delusion, if this is the truth of the matter I would suggest we wrap it up. The one thing that accepting the rational truth of the matter despite the bad taste in the mouth, is that we are all we have. Our world and the common carbon based biology that we all share. Life is consciousness, consciousness is life, lets get on with it.
Nick_A
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by Nick_A »

1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”

3 What do people gain from all their labors
at which they toil under the sun?
4 Generations come and generations go,
but the earth remains forever.
5 The sun rises and the sun sets,
and hurries back to where it rises.
6 The wind blows to the south
and turns to the north;
round and round it goes,
ever returning on its course.
7 All streams flow into the sea,
yet the sea is never full.
To the place the streams come from,
there they return again.
8 All things are wearisome,
more than one can say.
The eye never has enough of seeing,
nor the ear its fill of hearing.
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

10 Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.
11 No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.
There is nothing new under the sun but how about above the sun? Plato's divided line describes the conscious reality above the line in comparison with the mechanical reality below the line where we normally live which is meaningless. The level of the sun separates the conscious level from the mechanical level

http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato1.htm

Conscious reason is above the line while mechanical dualistic reason functions below the line. Mechanical reason is limited to the Law of the EXCLUDED middle while conscious reason includes the law of the INCLUDED middle which brings meaning to meaningless duality. Human meaning connects the verticality of above and below while animal meaning just serves the earth by its life processes.

The whole evolutionary potential for Man is to evolve from animal Man into conscious Man.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Nick,
Seems you've given me a lot of homework. My main point of the post is to underline the reality that as a result of this fact of meaninglessness we come together knowing that all we have is each other. I would appreciate a more individual response off top of your head, though I will read through the material you've provided. What do you think the world would look like if people just accepted the only meaning in the world is of a relational character, that we have no need of the supernatural to create or supply meaning. In your own words what lyes above the realm of apparent reality. I'll have to do some reading before I can respond further, but perhaps someone out there is more versed in the materials you have provided.
Nick_A
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 2:58 pm Hi Nick,
Seems you've given me a lot of homework. My main point of the post is to underline the reality that as a result of this fact of meaninglessness we come together knowing that all we have is each other. I would appreciate a more individual response off top of your head, though I will read through the material you've provided. What do you think the world would look like if people just accepted the only meaning in the world is of a relational character, that we have no need of the supernatural to create or supply meaning. In your own words what lyes above the realm of apparent reality. I'll have to do some reading before I can respond further, but perhaps someone out there is more versed in the materials you have provided.
As a whole society is the Beast described by Plato in Book V1 of the Republic:
I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him--he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes...
Like any other beast society is a creature of reaction responding to natural and cosmic influences which produce the cycles of nature. The Beast left to its own devices will reflect the cycles of nature described in Ecclesiastes 3. Lacking conscious choice it cannot do anything else. All the wonderful optimistic thoughts Man will write will be meaningless for the Beast is responding as a beast serving natural law.

I know you don't want to read it but without the awakening conscious help from above, the Beast or society as a whole will follow the cycles including war and peace. It is nature's way and since our lower selves are creatures of nature, what else is possible?

Ecclesiastes 3

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sculptor1
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by Sculptor1 »

popeye1945 wrote: May 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm

um, yeah, probably but what exactly is the question???

A "conclusion" to what exactly
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Sculptor1
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by Sculptor1 »

Nick_A wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 5:44 pm
popeye1945 wrote: May 2nd, 2021, 2:58 pm Hi Nick,
Seems you've given me a lot of homework. My main point of the post is to underline the reality that as a result of this fact of meaninglessness we come together knowing that all we have is each other. I would appreciate a more individual response off top of your head, though I will read through the material you've provided. What do you think the world would look like if people just accepted the only meaning in the world is of a relational character, that we have no need of the supernatural to create or supply meaning. In your own words what lyes above the realm of apparent reality. I'll have to do some reading before I can respond further, but perhaps someone out there is more versed in the materials you have provided.
As a whole society is the Beast described by Plato in Book V1 of the Republic:
I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him--he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes...
Like any other beast society is a creature of reaction responding to natural and cosmic influences which produce the cycles of nature. The Beast left to its own devices will reflect the cycles of nature described in Ecclesiastes 3. Lacking conscious choice it cannot do anything else. All the wonderful optimistic thoughts Man will write will be meaningless for the Beast is responding as a beast serving natural law.

I know you don't want to read it but without the awakening conscious help from above, the Beast or society as a whole will follow the cycles including war and peace. It is nature's way and since our lower selves are creatures of nature, what else is possible?

Ecclesiastes 3

There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
Not very helpful though.
Bible Smibile, Plato, blato
Tegularius
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by Tegularius »

popeye1945 wrote: May 1st, 2021, 8:44 pmMuch of what humanity has created is in reaction to this reality that life is meaningless, that nature cares not for the individual but only for species. Religion, philosophy, society and culture are direct responses to the indifference of nature. Nietzsche believed I think that humanity can not handle the harsh truth, that it cannot survive but in delusion, if this is the truth of the matter I would suggest we wrap it up. The one thing that accepting the rational truth of the matter despite the bad taste in the mouth, is that we are all we have. Our world and the common carbon based biology that we all share. Life is consciousness, consciousness is life, lets get on with it.
Nietzsche: “The claim that truth is found and that ignorance and error are at an end is one of the most potent seductions there is. Supposing it is believed, then the will to examination, investigation, caution, experiment is paralyzed…“Truth” is therefore more fateful than error and ignorance, because it cuts off the forces that work toward enlightenment and knowledge.”(The Will to Power)

...which I read as consciousness is that which improvises its own values. Consciousness is a dynamic entity which always strives toward or against something just like a body requires the proper muscles to coordinate and move itself through space. It's a time-conditioned dialectic which by striving towards meaning knows inherently that there's no such thing in the universe.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by Sy Borg »

Agnosticism is the most rational conclusion (to the question - "What is going on with reality?"). There's too much we don't know. I'm not sure how an informed conclusion can be reached. We are in good company - trilobites and dinosaurs know either.

Still, my gut feeling is that reality is not meaningless. Reality is so bizarre that I'm guessing that the perceptions of we life forms are based on significant perspective errors. That is, it seems to me that we do not perceive time, space and information truly. We have a great handle on these things in a functional sense, but my guess is that, in some ways, our senses force us to naturally confuse these aspects of reality.

If this is difficult to imagine, consider our perceptions of time, space and information in dreams. In our dreams, emotions that refer to events, ie. information, drive proceeding with only a loose relationship with time and space. Thus, in a dream, you can walk out of a room straight onto a beach, or the surface of another planet. Unlike reality, there is no time or space between events, only the imagined time and space of the dreamed events.

So reality may well be weirder than we imagined.
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chewybrian
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Re: Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by chewybrian »

Sy Borg wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 2:22 am Agnosticism is the most rational conclusion (to the question - "What is going on with reality?"). There's too much we don't know. I'm not sure how an informed conclusion can be reached. We are in good company - trilobites and dinosaurs know either.

Still, my gut feeling is that reality is not meaningless.
I agree. It is tough to get across in words, but I can't see anything happening without meaning. If nothing has any meaning or purpose, then why is there anything at all, and why does anything happen? Complete emptiness and nothing would confirm meaninglessness. Having anything exist at all hints at meaning, but does not necessarily define it. Maybe the meaning is right there in front of us. Like a monkey looking at a helicopter, we see that something is there, but we are not bright enough to see the purpose.

All the new things that are created by me have a purpose or meaning, even if the meanings are shallow or silly. If I was created from the universe, then perhaps I am just a continuation of the meaning that eludes me. How could a chain of meaning begin from me? Am I a God, then?

Descartes argued for God along similar lines. If we don't have God-like powers, then we don't really create new things. We only react to our programming and create different permutations of things that were already there. We can think of mermaids, but we already knew of fish and women. We can think of unicorns, but we already knew of horses and animals with horns. So, if we can think of meaning, then there must some spark of meaning existing ahead of this occurring to us. Either we have the God-like power to create meaning from nothing, and so all our creations have meaning, or we are simply becoming aware of meaning that was already there. Either way, it seems like there must be some meaning floating around.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by Pattern-chaser »

popeye1945 wrote: May 1st, 2021, 8:44 pm We as well as our ancestors have always known that the natural world is meaningless, we are caught in a mercil[ess] system.
On the contrary. Our history, particularly in prehistoric days, mainly concerns our search for meaning. And we found it too. It may not have been the right meaning - even if there is meaning? - but we found meaning nonetheless. So your opening sentence is factually incorrect. Where does your topic go from here?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Nick_A
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Re: Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by Nick_A »

ChewyBrian
I agree. It is tough to get across in words, but I can't see anything happening without meaning. If nothing has any meaning or purpose, then why is there anything at all, and why does anything happen? Complete emptiness and nothing would confirm meaninglessness. Having anything exist at all hints at meaning, but does not necessarily define it. Maybe the meaning is right there in front of us. Like a monkey looking at a helicopter, we see that something is there, but we are not bright enough to see the purpose.
It has always been my question: what is the meaning and purpose of our universe and Man within it? It is usually ignored as people prefer to argue about selective fragments or partial truths.

It does seem obvious that the universe is a living machine with the purpose of tranforming substances; changing one substance into another by its actions. The ouroboros is the great snake like creature eating and digesting itself represents the universe serving the process of transforming substances

Man existing within the universe serves the same function. Animal Man is a living machine transforming substances by its life processes. Eating, drinking, looking, defecating, sex, all transforms the energy used to perform these functions.

This is what animal Man or our lower parts does. Philosophy and religion suggests that the human organism is more than animal Man but has higher parts with their potential for consciousness that for several reasons have been forgotten but can be awakened or remembered through the influence of certain qualities of ideas and art.

Man then is not restricted to meaningless reactive existence below the sun or Plato's divided line but has the potential for conscious existence and becoming part of conscious life above the divided line. Only certain people are capable of such conscious contemplation since the majority prefers the familiarity and security of Plato's cave. They reject and ridicule the notion preferring to argue opinions or partial truths.

The universe is an integrated whole with the purpose of transforming substances. Some understand it but most prefer to argue opinions rather than trying to remember what has been forgotten
"A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Einstein
Einstein is one who tried to remember.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: Meaninglessness Is the Only Rational Truthful Conclusion

Post by popeye1945 »

Pattern Chaser,

The search you pointed to is in reaction to the obvious, that nature is indifferent, not even indifferent, for indifference is a quality of consciousness but it is utterly devoid of the awareness of your existence, utterly devoid of care. It echos through consciousness begging the question, is there not more, is there not meaning to all this. My answer to where does my topic go next, certainly not to create another fantasy. We are that which experiences, let us not continue to deny our experiences, our very identity is our experiences, and its time to get real. We have already proved how productive our imaginations can be, the imagination just needs a new direction one of self-awareness and self-control, without which our species is bound to perish.
popeye1945
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Tegularius,
Simply excellent, framed in a different way but excellent!!!!
popeye1945
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by popeye1945 »

um, yeah, probably but what exactly is the question???

A "conclusion" to what exactly
[/quote]

Sculptor,
Ouestion, Is it time to stop avoiding the obvious, three quarters of the population of the United States believe the world is six to ten thousand years old, thats more than half the country with their heads up their ass. They are still struggling to get creationism taught in the classroom as science. The question, when are we going to get real.
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chewybrian
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Re: MEANINGLESSNESS IS THE ONLY RATIONAL TRUTHFUL CONCLUSION

Post by chewybrian »

popeye1945 wrote: May 3rd, 2021, 3:24 pm ...three quarters of the population of the United States believe the world is six to ten thousand years old, thats more than half the country with their heads up their ass. They are still struggling to get creationism taught in the classroom as science. The question, when are we going to get real.
That is simply not true.
Roughly eight-in-ten U.S. adults (81%) say humans have evolved over time
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... ew%20study.

^To be fair, this number has been much different in the past, even the recent past. The current state of affairs, though, is not at all as you described. (in the US)
Outside the U.S., there are many other countries where sizable shares of the population reject evolution. In Latin America, for example, roughly four-in-ten or more residents of several countries – including Ecuador, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic – say humans and other living things have always existed in their present form. This is true even though the official teachings of Catholicism, which is the majority religion in the region, do not reject evolution. In Central and Eastern Europe, evolution is broadly accepted, but roughly half or more of adults in two countries – Armenia and Bosnia – reject it. Meanwhile, Muslims in many nations are divided on the topic, although majorities of Muslims in countries such as Afghanistan, Indonesia and Iraq reject evolution.
The numbers you are giving us seem to represent belief in God, with or without allegiance to any particular religion, and quite often without taking the bible or any religious text literally.

Image

https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/ame ... ions%20are.

It is ironic that you are blasting the religious folks for refusing to accept the universe as it presents, yet you don't seem to be taking religion as you find it. Isn't it easy enough to argue against what it really is? Simply believing in God does not often imply a belief in creationism, or a desire to have creationism taught in school. Many people believe in God and in evolution.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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