The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:Okay, but what works best for what we observe when we're doing science is mathematical constructions.
I think that amounts to saying: Mathematics is a good language to use for describing the patterns in our observations.
That's not the same thing as having an ontological commitment to mathematical constructions (as something that obtains in the objective world) however.
No it's not. I agree. It's just a recognition of the descriptive power of the language of mathematics.
But a lot of it depends on whether one believes that we can even observe an objective world. Many people do not believe this.
Yes. If we don't believe that then we're not interested in using the notion of "real existence" as one of the tools for describing the patterns in our observations. Or, to put it another way, we're not interested in constructing an ontology. (Do you agree that those are two ways of saying the same thing?)
So "ontological commitments" are not the same thing as what works best/what has practical utility (at least not in most views, and an instrumentalist with those views wouldn't really be an instrumentalist, at least not in the traditional sense).
I see why you say that. But I think it is possible to see "ontological commitments" as what has practical utility, if the goal is to decide which choice of real existents would best fit the patterns in our observations.
Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Faustus5 wrote:Show me a scientific citation from a respected, mainstream source in which your claim that collapse is "centered on us" is supported.
Do you agree with me that, with words used in the context of QM, "wavefunction collapse" is effectively another term for "observation"?
Atla wrote:You disagree that we only seem to be able to observe "collapsed" behavior, so you disagree with every known QM experiment.
If he disagreed with that he wouldn't be disagreeing with the empirical results of any experiments. He'd be disagreeing as to the definition, in context, of the term "wavefunction collapse".
Atla
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Atla »

Steve3007 wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:42 am
Faustus5 wrote:Show me a scientific citation from a respected, mainstream source in which your claim that collapse is "centered on us" is supported.
Do you agree with me that, with words used in the context of QM, "wavefunction collapse" is effectively another term for "observation"?
Atla wrote:You disagree that we only seem to be able to observe "collapsed" behavior, so you disagree with every known QM experiment.
If he disagreed with that he wouldn't be disagreeing with the empirical results of any experiments. He'd be disagreeing as to the definition, in context, of the term "wavefunction collapse".
If his problem is with the "definition" of wavefunction collapse, even though that's just a metaphor for something that's happening, then again, despite his claims, he's not well-read on the subject. And I said again again: we don't seem to ever directly observe wavefunctions / superpositions / however we want to conceptualize it.
We only seem to be able to directly observe "collapsed behaviour" ie. "classical behaviour" ie. "singular eigenstates ie. "stuff showing up in one piece in one place". Which is the measurement problem, why is it so? (Calling "measurement" "observation" is just semantics.)
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Faustus5
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Faustus5 »

Atla wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:15 am
I have.
No, you absolutely have not. Neither will you ever, because the notion of quantum physics you have in your head has nothing to do with reality and is just made up nonsense.
Atla wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:15 amYou disagree that we only seem to be able to observe "collapsed" behavior, so you disagree with every known QM experiment. In other words you are anti-science.
When scientists working in quantum computing succeed, for however long they do, in maintaining qbits which then go on to use unique quantum effects to do non-standard computing, what is going on? What is the difference between them confirming the qbits are successfully processing as designed, and them noticing that gosh darn, the qbits have de-cohered (you can replace that last word with anything else which points to the same phenomenon)?
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Faustus5
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Faustus5 »

Steve3007 wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:42 am
Do you agree with me that, with words used in the context of QM, "wavefunction collapse" is effectively another term for "observation"?
In an experimental context, yes. But the whole point is that whatever is going on there, the same processes are going on and have been going on throughout the universe since matter existed, and never had anything to do with us and don't require us to happen. They are in no unique sense "centered on us", except insofar as any experiment we can talk about is performed by us according to our desires and curiosity--but very little that happens in nature is an experiment performed by humans. Experiments just isolate and constrain events we know happen in nature all the time whether we notice them or are involved with them or not. Quantum physics is no different here.

And just another reminder, I simply don't have any opinions, or strong opinions at any rate, on which interpretations of quantum physics held by mainstream scientists are the "right" ones in any deep sense. So for instance, I'm fairly neutral on whether wavefunctions actually exist and "collapse" rather than merely being mathematical metaphors.

What I do know is that Atla's interpretation of quantum physics is just batsh*t craziness on par with Trump supporters who think they won the last election. Or his other nutcase position that science knows literally nothing about consciousness. We're talking flat-earther levels of delusion, here.
Atla
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Atla »

Faustus5 wrote: May 30th, 2021, 8:21 am
Atla wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:15 am
I have.
No, you absolutely have not. Neither will you ever, because the notion of quantum physics you have in your head has nothing to do with reality and is just made up nonsense.
Atla wrote: May 28th, 2021, 10:15 amYou disagree that we only seem to be able to observe "collapsed" behavior, so you disagree with every known QM experiment. In other words you are anti-science.
When scientists working in quantum computing succeed, for however long they do, in maintaining qbits which then go on to use unique quantum effects to do non-standard computing, what is going on? What is the difference between them confirming the qbits are successfully processing as designed, and them noticing that gosh darn, the qbits have de-cohered (you can replace that last word with anything else which points to the same phenomenon)?
Quantum computing is totally based on the notion that we only seem to be able to directly observe "collapsed" behaviour. It's even on the Wiki:
A qubit can be in a 1 or 0 quantum state, or in a superposition of the 1 and 0 states. When it is measured, however, it is always 0 or 1; the probability of either outcome depends on the qubit's quantum state immediately prior to measurement.
The whole point is that we have to keep the qubit in superposition until measurement happens. We have to stop the qubit from decohering to the "environment" with already "collapsed" behaviour.

Either through decoherence or through measurement, but the end result is always the same: we only seem to be able to directly observer "collapsed" behaviour. But of course people don't have to believe in well-established scientific facts.
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Faustus5
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Faustus5 »

Atla wrote: May 30th, 2021, 8:54 am
The whole point is that we have to keep the qubit in superposition until measurement happens. We have to stop the qubit from decohering to the "environment" with already "collapsed" behaviour.

Either through decoherence or through measurement, but the end result is always the same: we only seem to be able to directly observer "collapsed" behaviour.
Virtually nothing in science, especially in this field, is a "direct" observation. In almost all cases the scientist is reading a computer's output and inferring what actually happened. A lack of output therefore counts as much as an observation as an output--the (indirect) observation that a specific quantum state created and maintained by human intervention has not yet decohered and is still in superposition.

I don't suppose you recognize the irony in this--that in actuality, nature will always seek to decohere/collapse into a classical state and that it takes highly technical human activity to STOP this from happening. In other words, the reality is kind of the opposite of your original claim--coherence/superposition depend on us, not collapse/decoherence, which will occur on their own unless we change things, a process that was going on billions years before we came to be.
Atla
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Atla »

Faustus5 wrote: June 1st, 2021, 5:33 pm
Atla wrote: May 30th, 2021, 8:54 am
The whole point is that we have to keep the qubit in superposition until measurement happens. We have to stop the qubit from decohering to the "environment" with already "collapsed" behaviour.

Either through decoherence or through measurement, but the end result is always the same: we only seem to be able to directly observer "collapsed" behaviour.
Virtually nothing in science, especially in this field, is a "direct" observation. In almost all cases the scientist is reading a computer's output and inferring what actually happened. A lack of output therefore counts as much as an observation as an output--the (indirect) observation that a specific quantum state created and maintained by human intervention has not yet decohered and is still in superposition.

I don't suppose you recognize the irony in this--that in actuality, nature will always seek to decohere/collapse into a classical state and that it takes highly technical human activity to STOP this from happening. In other words, the reality is kind of the opposite of your original claim--coherence/superposition depend on us, not collapse/decoherence, which will occur on their own unless we change things, a process that was going on billions years before we came to be.
I recognize the irony - you don't know about the topic you are giving a lecture on. In QM, a lack of observation is a lack of observation, not an indirect observation. Trying to indirectly observe a superposition (using the usual meaning of the word "indirect"), destroys the superposition.

"in actuality, nature will always seek" nature has an universal intent? And you deduced this from the sample size of 1 (N = 1), the environment available to us?
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Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Steve3007 wrote:Do you agree with me that, with words used in the context of QM, "wavefunction collapse" is effectively another term for "observation"?
Faustus5 wrote:In an experimental context, yes. But the whole point is that whatever is going on there, the same processes are going on and have been going on throughout the universe since matter existed, and never had anything to do with us and don't require us to happen.
Not just in an experimental context. Keep in mind that I'm using the word "observation" in the sense in which it's used in QM (since that's what's being discussed):
Steve3007 wrote:Since "wavefunction collapse" is the bit of maths that is used to model the event called "observation" (not to be confused with the everyday usage of that word which implies that human senses are always involved in that event), obviously it would be self-contradictory to say "observation is not of collapsed behaviour". It would be equivalent to saying "observation is not observation".
popeye1945
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by popeye1945 »

It would seem the off topic battle over wave collapse and observation is over? If so, perhaps we might get back to relating our posts to the topic of the self as a functional illusion. There really is something weird about being a biological entity and illusion keeps us from realizing this. Perhaps some of us remember Richard Dawkins talks about the replicators building for themselves bodies to get around in, well, even if this were so, we would still be in essence those replicators, and what does that mean? We are process, we are function, we are desire to stay in being, the journey of lived experiences is not in fact our essence.
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