The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Incidentally: An interesting analogy to the reification of potential is the pricing of stock options. A call option is the option to buy a stock in the future. It isn't the stock itself. It's the potential to buy that stock. Yet it has calculable value and, as such, is treated as a financial instrument that, at least in the financial world, is just as "real" as actual stocks. There's a thought.
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Consul
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Consul »

Steve3007 wrote: May 13th, 2021, 7:18 amIf we define potential in the most general sense of the word (without yet tying it to a specific context like physics) then it's an expression of the perceived likelihood that something is going to happen in the future. For example, I could say that my son has the potential to be a premiership football player. Someone could point out that that's true of all able-bodied 15 year olds. I could then say what I mean is that having assessed his ability level I think there's a realistic chance of him being a premiership football player - a likelihood rather than just the theoretical possibility, in the sense that pretty much anything is theoretically possible.
No, to say that x has the potential to become/be/do y is not to say that it is likely or probable that x will be/become/do y. Potentialities can remain unmanifested or "dormant" forever; and they are different from propensities or tendencies, only the latter of which make actions or events more probable.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Consul »

Fanman wrote: May 13th, 2021, 3:31 amI agree in terms of things that already exist, as the attributes you mention already do. But what if we take things a step back and consider the potential for those attributes existing, not actually possessing them yet. How could we quantify potential in that sense? I don’t think there is a clear answer, or perhaps I have misunderstood you.
There are so-called iterated potential(itie)s:

QUOTE>
"…and iterated potentialities, potentialities to acquire potentialities (to acquire potentialities to acquire potentialities to…and so forth)."
(p. 31)

"Things have potentialities to possess properties. Potentialities themselves are properties. So, prima facie, things should have potentialities to have potentialities. And the latter potentialities might themselves be potentialities to have potentialities. So there is nothing to prevent things from having potentialities to have potentialities to have potentialities, or potentialities to have potentialities to have potentialities to have potentialities…and so forth. I will call any such potentiality an iterated potentiality."
(p. 135)

(Vetter, Barbara. Potentiality: From Dispositions to Modality. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2015.)
<QUOTE

However, even in the case of an infinite regress of iterated potentials, all potentialities in that series are actualities rather than mere possibilities. And in the case of a finite regress of iterated potentialities, the first one must be an actuality too, because there is no ontological twilight zone between being and nonbeing in the form of merely possible potentialities.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Consul wrote:No, to say that x has the potential to become/be/do y is not to say that it is likely or probable that x will be/become/do y. Potentialities can remain unmanifested or "dormant" forever; and they are different from propensities or tendencies, only the latter of which make actions or events more probable.
I disagree. I think that if I say "my son has the potential to become a premiership football player" I'm claiming something about the effect of his skills as a football player on the probability of his achieving that position. The fact that potentialities can be unmanifested is irrelevant to that. That seems obvious to me. But I don't particularly want to get into a semantic argument about it.
Fanman
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Fanman »

Steve3007,

I agree with what you say, I just have the following to add.
If we define potential in the most general sense of the word (without yet tying it to a specific context like physics) then it's an expression of the perceived likelihood that something is going to happen in the future. For example, I could say that my son has the potential to be a premiership football player. Someone could point out that that's true of all able-bodied 15 year olds. I could then say what I mean is that having assessed his ability level I think there's a realistic chance of him being a premiership football player - a likelihood rather than just the theoretical possibility, in the sense that pretty much anything is theoretically possible.

So in considering the concept of potential in this sense it's pretty obvious why some people would say it makes no sense to reify it - to see it as a thing, in the way that we see matter as a thing. Perceived likelihoods that something will happen in the future are theories or hypotheses in people's minds based on assessments of various empirical evidence. So I guess we could say that, in that sense, it's either metaphysical or abstract or both, depending on precisely how we use those words. But it's not real.
I think that’s right. But even though in this sense it is not real, we act according to the dictates of how the potential can be realised. For example: Because your son has the potential to become a premier league player, you will do everything you can so that he can fulfil his potential. So although it is not real as in not yet realised, it denotes a real possibility. And therefore has a degree of existence. In what aspect of time and space, is the question. In the case of your son, it would be in his skill level.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Fanman
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Fanman »

So I would say that potential exists (in the context of people) in the level of capability that we have to do something.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Fanman wrote:...So I would say that potential exists (in the context of people) in the level of capability that we have to do something.
OK. If you were to interpret "potential" as referring to a currently existing property then yes, you could argue that potential, in that sense, is real. Going back to the football example, if you were to regard "my son has the potential to be a Premiership football player" as literally a statement about my son's currently existing skills, such that "potential" is, in that context, another word for a particular skill set, then you can claim that potential is real.

I guess that would then be equivalent to interpreting a statement like "a ball on top of a hill has gravitational potential energy" as a statement about the position of the ball within a field rather than a statement about the possibility of the ball's future movement.

(Incidentally, in actual fact, he doesn't. He plays in goal and, apart from anything else, he's not tall enough.)
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Consul
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

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Steve3007 wrote: May 13th, 2021, 10:41 am
Consul wrote:No, to say that x has the potential to become/be/do y is not to say that it is likely or probable that x will be/become/do y. Potentialities can remain unmanifested or "dormant" forever; and they are different from propensities or tendencies, only the latter of which make actions or events more probable.
I disagree. I think that if I say "my son has the potential to become a premiership football player" I'm claiming something about the effect of his skills as a football player on the probability of his achieving that position. The fact that potentialities can be unmanifested is irrelevant to that. That seems obvious to me. But I don't particularly want to get into a semantic argument about it.
If your son has the potential to become a football player and he tries to become one, then it is likely or probable that he will succeed (unless there are circumstances preventing him from succeeding). But if your son has the potential to become a football player but is uninterested in becoming one, then it is highly unlikely or improbable that he will become a football player.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Atla
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Atla »

popeye1945 wrote: May 9th, 2021, 6:33 am Well, the Buddhists say that there is no self, I suppose this is saying the same thing in a different way. Most people think of the self as their identity, but you did not have an identity when you were brought into this world, you acquired it from your reactions to your environment. What came into the world was a constitution either healthy and hardy or a little less so and a little frailer. This constitution in the process of gathering through its experience an identity becomes its experience, it becomes a storyline ever developing, ever adding. At some time one probably procreates and renews the constitution, that spark of life which is relatively immortal, your constitution eventually fails your function realized and your experience storyline enters into oblivion, and the process is relatively immortal, as it has renewed itself as it has for eons.
We don't come into the world, we come out of it, remain one with it. The human self relates to the world kinda how a wave relates to the ocean. The human self is just a very complicated wave that believes that it's separate from the ocean.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Steve3007
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Steve3007 »

Consul wrote:If your son has the potential to become a football player and he tries to become one, then it is likely or probable that he will succeed (unless there are circumstances preventing him from succeeding). But if your son has the potential to become a football player but is uninterested in becoming one, then it is highly unlikely or improbable that he will become a football player.
So if my son has the potential to become a football player, there are two possibilities: either he chooses to become one or he doesn't. If he doesn't have that potential then there is one possibility: he doesn't become one. The former represents a higher probability of becoming one than the latter. Therefore "My son has the potential to be a football player" is a statement about his probability of becoming one. Similarly "My son does not have the potential to become a football player" is also a statement about that probability. It's a statement that the probability is zero.

Similarly, for the example of stock options: If I have a call option on a stock, I have the potential to buy that stock. I don't have to exercise the option. I could choose not to. That's why it's called an option. Nevertheless, owning the option means I have a greater probability of buying the stock than not owning the option. Therefore the option has definable non-zero monetary value.
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Consul
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

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Steve3007 wrote: May 13th, 2021, 11:31 amSo if my son has the potential to become a football player, there are two possibilities: either he chooses to become one or he doesn't. If he doesn't have that potential then there is one possibility: he doesn't become one. The former represents a higher probability of becoming one than the latter. Therefore "My son has the potential to be a football player" is a statement about his probability of becoming one. Similarly "My son does not have the potential to become a football player" is also a statement about that probability. It's a statement that the probability is zero.
My potentials concern what I can become/be/do (given my particular nature); and, of course, if I cannot ever become/be/do x, the probability of my ever becoming/being/doing x is zero. But per se my potential to become/be/do x entails nothing about how probable it is that I will become/be/do x, because whether or not my potential will be manifested or activated by me depends on various factors and circumstances.

As I already said, potentialities aren't propensities; that is, having the potential to do x doesn't mean being inclined to do x; and it is even compatible with being disinclined to do x, in which case the probability of doing x is very low despite the presence of the potential to do x.

By the way, choosing or deciding to become a football player is independent of having the potential to do so. Even talentless guys can do so (but they're certainly unlikely to succeed).
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
popeye1945
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

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A common enough misconception. We do in fact have a self in much the same way we have a body.
Let me ask you this. If Buddhists think that there is no "self" then why is it that half their teachings are designed to try to make their adherents selfless??
It would be like the fireservice saying that fire does not exist.
No, there are many senses we have. Far more than Aristotle's five big ones. The sense of self is possibly the most important, and has many aspects. We have a sense of direction, touch, proprioperception- enbodyiment (place); hunger; thirst, equilibrioception, chronoception, and many others all contrubute to a sense of self.Quote

The Buddhists design to make their adherents shed the illusion of the self, that it the fire.

When all these things fade, you loose yourself with them; because our body is what our self is.
People with alzheimer's syndrome give witness to the disappearing self. A tragedy to watch.
There is no immoral aspect to this; that is just your fears wishing away reality.
[/quote]

So according to you, the self is the memory, the memory is made up of past experiences when one is born one has no past experiences. There is no self there is but a constitution which becomes its experiences, the loss of memory leaves only a constitution.
popeye1945
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

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For my part, I was just trying to make sense of a particular couple of sentences that you wrote. That's what I was talking about. You'd have to explain for yourself what you're talking about.

I think it would help if you were more coherent in stating what you're proposing; what the central thesis of this topic is. It seems to have started as the proposition that the concept of self is an illusion because human personalities evolve over time. Or something like that. But then, at least in the parts that I've read, it seemed to turn into something vaguely inspired by some of the headline features of quantum mechanics.

Is the topic still about the proposition contained in its title? If not, where would you like to take it?


A technical point about the mechanics of this site: To make it clear who you're replying to, and to make sure they notice your reply, it's useful to use the quote tags. To quote something that somebody has said such that they'll be notified that you've quoted them, enclose the relevant words between quote tags (the word "quote" surrounded by square brackets at the start and the same word preceded by a '/' and surrounded by square brackets at the end). After the first instance of the word "quote", type '=' followed by the name of the person you're quoting. That will cause them to receive a notification.
[/quote]

Steve,

Sorry if I tended to confuse the issue in question, no the topic remains that the self is a highly functional illusion. I'll try to get a handle on the quote system. Thanks for the heads up!
popeye1945
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by popeye1945 »

We don't come into the world, we come out of it, remain one with it. The human self relates to the world kinda how a wave relates to the ocean. The human self is just a very complicated wave that believes that it's separate from the ocean.
[/quote]

Atla,
Excellent!!
Fanman
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Re: The Self as a Highly Functional Illusion

Post by Fanman »

Steve3007,
OK. If you were to interpret "potential" as referring to a currently existing property then yes, you could argue that potential, in that sense, is real. Going back to the football example, if you were to regard "my son has the potential to be a Premiership football player" as literally a statement about my son's currently existing skills, such that "potential" is, in that context, another word for a particular skill set, then you can claim that potential is real.
I agree.
I guess that would then be equivalent to interpreting a statement like "a ball on top of a hill has gravitational potential energy" as a statement about the position of the ball within a field rather than a statement about the possibility of the ball's future movement.
Yes, that right. In people, potential describes what they have the capability to achieve. But in objects, potential describes its field in relation to energy (excuse my science terminology).
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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