TRUTH IS UNIVERSAL

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Simon says...
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Post by Simon says... »

Then if existence is a perceived context what do you call events that occur without an observer?
nameless
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Post by nameless »

Simon says... wrote:Then if existence is a perceived context what do you call events that occur without an observer?
Is this a trick question?
If existence is perceived context, there are no events that occur without an observer.
It is the perception that is the 'event'/percept.
Perceiver and perceived are 'one'.
You cannot be seperated from context and exist.
For a complete definition of 'you' (or anything else), for instance, one must include context. And the complete context of anything, you, me, the sun, is the entirety of the Universe! (Think Butterfly Effect) So, even definitionally, we are, ultimately, one Universe. Again, further distinctions, incur Occam's razor.

(I edited my previous post if you're interested)
Simon says...
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Post by Simon says... »

One cannot observe an electron, do they still move? I eat this biscuit, I do not observe it's digestion, but does this still happen and thus keeps me alive? I throw a body on a fire, I leave, when I come back it is burned away, did the body wink out of existence and then come back changed when I returned or did it exist throughout that time undergoing a series of causal changes?
nameless
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Post by nameless »

Simon says... wrote:One cannot observe an electron, do they still move?
Once upon a time, there was an electron that lived on a particular energy level in an atom, for a moment, when observed. One day it appeared to 'jump' from that energy level to the next energy level. We called that a quantum leap. 'Here' one moment, 'here' the next. We assumed it to be, of course, the same electron existing, at different times, on both energy levels.
So it appeared.
Since then, we have such excellent observational aids that we can now look to watch for the electron between energy levels, 'leaping' from here to there.
Surprise!
There is no electron to be found between energy levels! An electron winks out of existence, one moment, on one level, and an electron appears on the next energy level another moment. No longer is it assumed to 'move' or 'leap' or even be the same electron as was observed on the previous energy level.
What we assumed to 'exist' between observances, doesn't.
Appearances can be deceiving. A movie certainly doesn't look like the sequential viewing of still frames. We see 'action', movement, a 'trick' of perspective, just like in our day to day lives.
I throw a body on a fire, I leave, when I come back it is burned away, did the body wink out of existence and then come back changed when I returned

If there were absolutely no other Conscious Perspectives perceiving the body, then yes, just like the electron that didn't leap.
or did it exist throughout that time undergoing a series of causal changes?
From the Perspective of 'science' (and logic and philosophy...), for instance, 'causality' is becomming more and more discredited as (theory) some sort of 'universal truth', perhaps a relic of local Perspective at best.

'Causality' is rather like the 'quantum leap', rather like the illusion of 'action' in a movie. There is no 'action/motion' other than the 'appearance' of it as certain Perspectives.
Just as all still frames of the movie exist simultaneously, the appearance of motion comes from Perspective of them.
All existing moments/percepts exist simultaneously. Linearity is a Perspective (feature) of this 'reality'. As 'linearity' is a locally perceived feature of 'Reality', so is the notion of 'causality'. 'Causality' can only exist in/as a linear/sequential Perspective.

But we are straying far from topic. If you like, perhaps we should continue this in PM, and let the thread get back on track?
Peace
Simon says...
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Post by Simon says... »

sure, the OP was on truth as I recall...
nameless
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Post by nameless »

Simon says... wrote:sure, the OP was on truth as I recall...
True enough, but we can take any subject and 'argue' the 'truth' of the matter, but I don't think that is the OP's intent. I could be incorrect...
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pjkeeley
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Post by pjkeeley »

nameless wrote:I doubt that. I would not say such a nonsensical thing. You are in error.
Feel free to link me, or stand down.
That would require me to go through all of your posts until I find it. I won't do that, nor will I stand down. Choose to ignore my comment if you wish, but the comment stands.
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ontologic_conceptualist
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Post by ontologic_conceptualist »

Simon says... wrote:One cannot observe an electron, do they still move?
So, you've never seen lightning huh?
Who I Am Is What I Am
What I Am Is Why I Am
Why I Am IS Who I Am...

The question you should be asking is...who are you?
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ontologic_conceptualist
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Post by ontologic_conceptualist »

I "See" a firey red head, heavenly full fire engine red lips, 6'-6'2"ft tall, firm D cups, flareing emeral eyes, light tan, med waist, wide hips, fantastic well rounded firm rear, athletic/soccer legs, white, white teeth and I say "I'm in love"

or

there's the girl I've been dating for six weeks, plain in every manner, I've never said the 'L' word to her, but I see she's about to get hit by a tour bus crossing the street, all I say "Rachel !!!"

Whitch is real, you cant see or hear either, but there is truthfull 'Love' in one of those examples... !!!
Last edited by ontologic_conceptualist on July 16th, 2009, 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Who I Am Is What I Am
What I Am Is Why I Am
Why I Am IS Who I Am...

The question you should be asking is...who are you?
nameless
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Location: Here/Now

Post by nameless »

pjkeeley wrote:
nameless wrote:I doubt that. I would not say such a nonsensical thing. You are in error.
Feel free to link me, or stand down.
That would require me to go through all of your posts until I find it. I won't do that, nor will I stand down. Choose to ignore my comment if you wish, but the comment stands.
You are a moderator, right? You can use the search function, right? You can put in the alleged quote and find it in seconds, if it exists, right?
Your response is far from the height of philosophical critical thought. Your refusal to recant is rather more like emotional egoic reaction.
Whatever...

Why do you feel the need to respond to my posts if this is all you do? Sounds like a personal problem to me.
How's about just ignoring my posts? Can you do that? (especially if you have no more rational content to contribute than this sort of ego-motional thing. Unpleasant at best...)
(and your avatar is creepy!)
nameless out
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pjkeeley
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Post by pjkeeley »

nameless wrote:You are a moderator, right? You can use the search function, right? You can put in the alleged quote and find it in seconds, if it exists, right?
But I never said it was a quote; it wasn't. It may have been implied, or it may have been stated in very different words, I don't know. I trust my own memory and have better things to do than go looking blindly for it.
nameless wrote:Your response is far from the height of philosophical critical thought. Your refusal to recant is rather more like emotional egoic reaction.
Whatever. Like I said, I trust my memory. As for emotions and ego? Sure, I embrace both, they are an important part of my being. I won't deny my posts have a lot to do with my ego.
nameless wrote:How's about just ignoring my posts? Can you do that?
Why? I enjoy reading your posts.
nameless wrote:(especially if you have no more rational content to contribute than this sort of ego-motional thing. Unpleasant at best...)
Are my responses always that bad? I inject emotion into my posts, yes, but my responses mostly contain grounded criticisms of your arguments (maybe not in this thread I admit). You should be thankful that someone is challenging you on a regular basis; to me critical thinking is what this forum is for. :P
nameless wrote:(and your avatar is creepy!)
:twisted:
nameless
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Post by nameless »

pjkeeley wrote:Are my responses always that bad?
Nope. Not at all.
I inject emotion into my posts, yes, but my responses mostly contain grounded criticisms of your arguments (maybe not in this thread I admit).

Yes, I'd "admit" that also, hence my call for you to step down on this particular assertion of your's, solely supported by 'your memory', since your memory has no correlation with "grounded criticisms".
I don't mind responding to thoughtfully rational and respectful criticism of these words. "These words". Not some defamatory words that you (don't remember) putting into my mouth. Your memory aside, I say that i have never written such a thing or implied so.
Why can't you do the philosophically correct thing and recant your assertion until and unles you can do better than 'your memory' for support.
You should be thankful that someone is challenging you on a regular basis; to me critical thinking is what this forum is for.

Thats what philosophy is, critical thought, not the above 'memory trick' from the landa slander.
And I won't mention it again.
Peace
popeye1945
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Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
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Re: TRUTH IS UNIVERSAL

Post by popeye1945 »

Truth is sensation which is then processed and tested against the physical world, this is universal, and inter species.
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