Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Scott
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Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Scott »

To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people. In other words, this question is only for non-zombies. This is because philosophical zombies will not understand what is meant by the words you, me, and I in the question.

In the sense that the words are used in this topic, if I said the word "you" to a philosophical zombie, I would be referring to something that doesn't actually exist, since the word 'you' in the sense used in this topic refers to something that the zombie lacks by definition.

With those important clarifications in mind, if you are a not a philosophical zombie, please do let me know your answer to the following question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Atla
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Atla »

Looks like you mean self-awareness p-zombies; not qualia p-zombies, which are usually meant by p-zombies (and which don't exist imo).

Imo: self-awareness p-zombies make up about 2/3 of humanity. There are quite a few on this forum too. Self-awareness tends to take shape, take on a life of its own around 115 IQ, where abstract thinking tends to take over. That's where the "I" is really born.

The "I" becomes an integral part of the personality, it gets co-shaped with the rest of the personality, but it may be pretty empty by itself. Placed into another body with another personality, maybe there would be a sensation that something is very wrong, something is very off, but it would be impossible to tell what.
True philosophy points to the Moon
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people. In other words, this question is only for non-zombies. This is because philosophical zombies will not understand what is meant by the words you, me, and I in the question.

In the sense that the words are used in this topic, if I said the word "you" to a philosophical zombie, I would be referring to something that doesn't actually exist, since the word 'you' in the sense used in this topic refers to something that the zombie lacks by definition.

With those important clarifications in mind, if you are a not a philosophical zombie, please do let me know your answer to the following question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
It is evident that brain injury can lead to memory loss, change of personality, loss of sense of self, failure to reconisze close friends and family and much more - that leads to the obvious conclusion that a healthy brain is required for "me", "you", and everyone else to have consciousness and to answer questions on Philosophy fora, your question is close to having no merit whatever. Memories are brain states.

Though it is a common myth in trashy novels, such as P.G. Wodehouse's Laughing Gas, and amusing films such as Tom Hanks' Big, the transference of a "soul", "spirit", whatever ancient mythical notion you wish to mobilise, such a thing is simply not possible.
Thankfully no one could ever go to sleep "in your body", except by a complete brain transplant.
Not sure what the waking up bit is supposed to indicate, as if I awoke in my body with my memories, is something I do every day. Having had the brain transplant only to have my brain back again the following morning, I think the difference would be all the BLOOD and the BLINDING headache.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by AverageBozo »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
There are an I-that-is-you in this question, the one who goes to sleep, as well as an I-that-is-me, the one who wakes up—2 different selfs but only one consciousness. Actually, there are 2 partial consciences, the one that gets into bed and the one that gets up. They exist consecutively, not concurrently. In a sense, the 2 partials add up to 1 whole (excluding the sleep time from this equation). Make no mistake: the I in your body is you and the I in mine is me.

Because only one consciousness is operative at any given time, each consciousness would be unaware of the other’s memories and experiences. The I-that-is-you goes to bed each night without being aware of anything out of the ordinary. Likewise the I-that-is-me awakens every day with a reality consistent with the previous morning’s reality.

The reality that the I that is you knows is different than the one that the I that is me knows, but with only one awareness (a partial one at that) operational at a time there would be no way to notice that reality had changed from one to the other.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Terrapin Station »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories,


Not possible. To have your body is to be you.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Terrapin Station »

Philosophical zombies are not possible, either, by the way. The very idea of that hinges on a loosey-goosey fantasy that mind is something other than a subset of brain function.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Scott »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people.
Sculptor1 wrote: May 15th, 2021, 12:48 pm Though it is a common myth in trashy novels, such as P.G. Wodehouse's Laughing Gas, and amusing films such as Tom Hanks' Big, the transference of a "soul", "spirit", whatever ancient mythical notion you wish to mobilise, such a thing is simply not possible.
I didn't ask if it's possible.

Assuming the human typing under the name Sculpter1 is not a philosophical zombie, then here is the hypothetical question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Scott »

AverageBozo wrote: May 15th, 2021, 1:09 pm
Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
The reality that the I that is you knows is different than the one that the I that is me knows, but with only one awareness (a partial one at that) operational at a time there would be no way to notice that reality had changed from one to the other.
If I am understanding correctly, you are saying that you believe that there would be a difference but it would be imperceptible, meaning something would have actually changed but it would impossible to be noticed or observed; is that correct?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Scott »

Terrapin Station wrote: May 15th, 2021, 3:41 pm
Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories,
Not possible. To have your body is to be you.
I didn't ask if it is possible, nor did I assert that you wouldn't be me (also).

Assuming the human posting as Terrapin Station is not a philosophical zombie, this is the hypothetical question I asked:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Sculptor1 »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:29 pm
Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people.
Sculptor1 wrote: May 15th, 2021, 12:48 pm Though it is a common myth in trashy novels, such as P.G. Wodehouse's Laughing Gas, and amusing films such as Tom Hanks' Big, the transference of a "soul", "spirit", whatever ancient mythical notion you wish to mobilise, such a thing is simply not possible.
I didn't ask if it's possible.

Assuming the human typing under the name Sculpter1 is not a philosophical zombie, then here is the hypothetical question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
If it is not possible, then your scenario, your question, and the thread is meaningless.
Unless, that is, if you can say HOW a person can come to have another person's memories then you cannot answer "would there be a difference?"
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Terrapin Station »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:34 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: May 15th, 2021, 3:41 pm
Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories,
Not possible. To have your body is to be you.
I didn't ask if it is possible, nor did I assert that you wouldn't be me (also).

Assuming the human posting as Terrapin Station is not a philosophical zombie, this is the hypothetical question I asked:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
You're not getting it. ___I___ couldn't go to sleep "in your body" with your memories. Your body (naturally with your memories) would BE you. It can't be "me as you." That's incoherent.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Terrapin Station »

Of course, we have things like "Joe in Frank's body" in fantasy fiction, by the way, and that's fun for what it is--very loose fantasizing, but we have to just pretend that that could work somehow, without fussing over the details, because in reality the idea is incoherent.
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Nick_A »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people. In other words, this question is only for non-zombies. This is because philosophical zombies will not understand what is meant by the words you, me, and I in the question.

In the sense that the words are used in this topic, if I said the word "you" to a philosophical zombie, I would be referring to something that doesn't actually exist, since the word 'you' in the sense used in this topic refers to something that the zombie lacks by definition.

With those important clarifications in mind, if you are a not a philosophical zombie, please do let me know your answer to the following question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
Hi Scott

I may be wrong but I think you mean that a truly conscious being wouldn't have a body but rather could adopt or live in one and experience it. Since Man on earth is not conscious and has a body, the body is dominant and the mind obeys the desires of the body and acquired emotional needs. This is the source of what is called the human condition. The body and animal emotions obey reason for normal conscious man and Man can consciously evolve. But for fallen Man, the mind obeys bodily appetites supported by negative emotions and Man remains in the prison of Plato's cave.

Can animal man become conscious man? A good question but for now, I couldn't live in your body since I am attached to my body.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people. In other words, this question is only for non-zombies. This is because philosophical zombies will not understand what is meant by the words you, me, and I in the question.

In the sense that the words are used in this topic, if I said the word "you" to a philosophical zombie, I would be referring to something that doesn't actually exist, since the word 'you' in the sense used in this topic refers to something that the zombie lacks by definition.

With those important clarifications in mind, if you are a not a philosophical zombie, please do let me know your answer to the following question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
No there would be no difference. Why? Because for you to notice the difference would require a memory of the episode, yet you stipulated there would only be routine memory.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Question for non-zombies: If you went to sleep as me in my bed with my memories...

Post by Atla »

Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 11:34 pm
Scott wrote: May 15th, 2021, 10:57 am To readers who are philosophical zombies, please do not attempt to answer the below question, and please do not post in or participate in this thread. In other words, if you are not or do not have a spirit (a.k.a. consciousness), please do not answer the question or participate in this topic.

This question is only for truly conscious people. In other words, this question is only for non-zombies. This is because philosophical zombies will not understand what is meant by the words you, me, and I in the question.

In the sense that the words are used in this topic, if I said the word "you" to a philosophical zombie, I would be referring to something that doesn't actually exist, since the word 'you' in the sense used in this topic refers to something that the zombie lacks by definition.

With those important clarifications in mind, if you are a not a philosophical zombie, please do let me know your answer to the following question:

If you went to sleep in my body in my bed with my memories, and awoke in your body in your bed with your memories, would you notice a difference? Would there be a difference to notice?
Hi Scott

I may be wrong but I think you mean that a truly conscious being wouldn't have a body but rather could adopt or live in one and experience it. Since Man on earth is not conscious and has a body, the body is dominant and the mind obeys the desires of the body and acquired emotional needs. This is the source of what is called the human condition. The body and animal emotions obey reason for normal conscious man and Man can consciously evolve. But for fallen Man, the mind obeys bodily appetites supported by negative emotions and Man remains in the prison of Plato's cave.

Can animal man become conscious man? A good question but for now, I couldn't live in your body since I am attached to my body.
The kind of consciousness you spent a lifetime acquiring and went to hell and back for it and think is something transcendent, is actually perfectly ordinary Earth consciousness for the third of humanity. They get it automatically, some at like the age of 5.
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