Anthropic principle meets consciousness

[Atla]

Hello Alta! Thank you for your thoughts and contribution.

With respect to the problem of why abstract mathematical structures so effectively explain the universe and our cosmological conditions, we know the ongoing debate is insoluble. Much like many existential features of the human condition and the mind itself, as you know, there is ongoing discourse associated with whether mathematics is out there to be discovered, or whether it's a human invention.

None-the-less to support an anthropic model that includes human value systems, we can see the parallel between other abstract structures from consciousness (love, the will, Kantian aesthetics, wonderment, music, intuition, intention, Schopenhauer metaphysics, sentience...) itself. So in this sense I would agree, it is perhaps a wonderful problem to have... any thoughts?

With respect to your second point, could we be saying the laws of physics (mathematics/metaphysics) is an ancillary feature of human consciousness (not required for darwinian survival)? I ask this because if we agree mathematics itself cannot explain how inanimate matter becomes animent matter, and that the nature of reality ( neurons, protons etc.) at its most fundamental level can only be described mathematically, how do we reconcile those important abstract features of existence, reality and consciousness? In other words what do any of these foregoing abstract features have in common and what is their purpose... .

Finally, to remove phenomenology from human value systems would essentially mean to remove the concept of Anthropology from the universe; there would be no need or reason to make a connection in the first place and posit same. The concept of value (systems) in itself, relates directly to self-aware conscious beings with higher levels of intellect... .

But why would values be needed for self-awareness? I guess the simplest refutation of this is when we meet a self-aware psychopath.

The Anthropic principle works just fine without a central role for value systems. It just says that a self-aware, intelligent organism will necessarily find itself in a world capable of producing a self-aware, intelligent organism. Maybe ultimately we are here to give the universe purpose, values, maybe something else is going on altogether.

Alta!

That's a great question. I believe value systems are subordinate to self-awareness. Much like the will to be, over intellect. Meaning, I think self-awareness causes such value systems to come into being which is intrinsic to why people have the desire to go on living. It is important to their way of Being. And that is apparently different from lower level life forms of instinct. In other words, one's own subjective truth would be one example of this distinction between self-aware beings and lower life forms. Lower life forms, of course, would not have the intellect and the reasoning capabilities associated with such higher levels of self-awareness. And those value systems in themselves, are abstract metaphysical features of the mind, much like all the other metaphysical languages and phenom from consciousness we've been discussing... .

Another way of looking at it would be an obvious layman's comparison. Imagine that there were no human lifeforms but instead, just lower level life forms such as plants and animals. The concept of Anthropology itself would not exist. At the very least, you may even say out of logical necessity, that it does exist.

But the existential part of the so-called human condition, as you alluded, is that we cannot escape this need to seek happiness and purpose. Our intentions are to seek out ways to discover and uncover a certain way of Being. That's pretty distinct from ordinary instinct, since the Will itself, provides for such purpose, each person still has to find their own unique way of being-happy. The painter must paint, the scientist must research, the doctor must discover, the teacher must teach, the musician must make music, the writer must write, the carpenter must build, ad nauseum.

Along with our sense of wonder (i.e., causation, etc.), those things are part of human value systems.

Unfortunately I reject the phenomenologist's obsession with mental phenomena (a rather specific obsession with the usual mental phenomena of typically male, middle-aged or older, above average intelligence, philosophically inclined, neurotypical humans).

I don't get all the fuss about phenomenology. As I said I see no reason to think that values are needed for self-awareness, and values also seem to be largely irrelevant to the Anthropic principle.

[3017Metaphysician]

Hello Alta! Thank you for your thoughts and contribution.

With respect to the problem of why abstract mathematical structures so effectively explain the universe and our cosmological conditions, we know the ongoing debate is insoluble. Much like many existential features of the human condition and the mind itself, as you know, there is ongoing discourse associated with whether mathematics is out there to be discovered, or whether it's a human invention.

None-the-less to support an anthropic model that includes human value systems, we can see the parallel between other abstract structures from consciousness (love, the will, Kantian aesthetics, wonderment, music, intuition, intention, Schopenhauer metaphysics, sentience...) itself. So in this sense I would agree, it is perhaps a wonderful problem to have... any thoughts?

With respect to your second point, could we be saying the laws of physics (mathematics/metaphysics) is an ancillary feature of human consciousness (not required for darwinian survival)? I ask this because if we agree mathematics itself cannot explain how inanimate matter becomes animent matter, and that the nature of reality ( neurons, protons etc.) at its most fundamental level can only be described mathematically, how do we reconcile those important abstract features of existence, reality and consciousness? In other words what do any of these foregoing abstract features have in common and what is their purpose... .

Finally, to remove phenomenology from human value systems would essentially mean to remove the concept of Anthropology from the universe; there would be no need or reason to make a connection in the first place and posit same. The concept of value (systems) in itself, relates directly to self-aware conscious beings with higher levels of intellect... .

But why would values be needed for self-awareness? I guess the simplest refutation of this is when we meet a self-aware psychopath.

The Anthropic principle works just fine without a central role for value systems. It just says that a self-aware, intelligent organism will necessarily find itself in a world capable of producing a self-aware, intelligent organism. Maybe ultimately we are here to give the universe purpose, values, maybe something else is going on altogether.

Alta!

That's a great question. I believe value systems are subordinate to self-awareness. Much like the will to be, over intellect. Meaning, I think self-awareness causes such value systems to come into being which is intrinsic to why people have the desire to go on living. It is important to their way of Being. And that is apparently different from lower level life forms of instinct. In other words, one's own subjective truth would be one example of this distinction between self-aware beings and lower life forms. Lower life forms, of course, would not have the intellect and the reasoning capabilities associated with such higher levels of self-awareness. And those value systems in themselves, are abstract metaphysical features of the mind, much like all the other metaphysical languages and phenom from consciousness we've been discussing... .

Another way of looking at it would be an obvious layman's comparison. Imagine that there were no human lifeforms but instead, just lower level life forms such as plants and animals. The concept of Anthropology itself would not exist. At the very least, you may even say out of logical necessity, that it does exist.

But the existential part of the so-called human condition, as you alluded, is that we cannot escape this need to seek happiness and purpose. Our intentions are to seek out ways to discover and uncover a certain way of Being. That's pretty distinct from ordinary instinct, since the Will itself, provides for such purpose, each person still has to find their own unique way of being-happy. The painter must paint, the scientist must research, the doctor must discover, the teacher must teach, the musician must make music, the writer must write, the carpenter must build, ad nauseum.

Along with our sense of wonder (i.e., causation, etc.), those things are part of human value systems.

Unfortunately I reject the phenomenologist's obsession with mental phenomena (a rather specific obsession with the usual mental phenomena of typically male, middle-aged or older, above average intelligence, philosophically inclined, neurotypical humans).

I don't get all the fuss about phenomenology. As I said I see no reason to think that values are needed for self-awareness, and values also seem to be largely irrelevant to the Anthropic principle.

Hi Alta!

I'm not quite following you, what are you really trying to say, (other than seemingly, you just don't like something) ?

Are you saying human's don't need value systems for their own sense of survival (i.e.; why/how does one choose to live and not die)?

In that context, what is the Will? Do other animals have will or instinct that drives their survival? And of they have will, can you explain or describe their will to live (empirically or otherwise)?

Among many things, how do we square that circle

Thank you kindly.

[Atla]

But why would values be needed for self-awareness? I guess the simplest refutation of this is when we meet a self-aware psychopath.

The Anthropic principle works just fine without a central role for value systems. It just says that a self-aware, intelligent organism will necessarily find itself in a world capable of producing a self-aware, intelligent organism. Maybe ultimately we are here to give the universe purpose, values, maybe something else is going on altogether.

Alta!

That's a great question. I believe value systems are subordinate to self-awareness. Much like the will to be, over intellect. Meaning, I think self-awareness causes such value systems to come into being which is intrinsic to why people have the desire to go on living. It is important to their way of Being. And that is apparently different from lower level life forms of instinct. In other words, one's own subjective truth would be one example of this distinction between self-aware beings and lower life forms. Lower life forms, of course, would not have the intellect and the reasoning capabilities associated with such higher levels of self-awareness. And those value systems in themselves, are abstract metaphysical features of the mind, much like all the other metaphysical languages and phenom from consciousness we've been discussing... .

Another way of looking at it would be an obvious layman's comparison. Imagine that there were no human lifeforms but instead, just lower level life forms such as plants and animals. The concept of Anthropology itself would not exist. At the very least, you may even say out of logical necessity, that it does exist.

But the existential part of the so-called human condition, as you alluded, is that we cannot escape this need to seek happiness and purpose. Our intentions are to seek out ways to discover and uncover a certain way of Being. That's pretty distinct from ordinary instinct, since the Will itself, provides for such purpose, each person still has to find their own unique way of being-happy. The painter must paint, the scientist must research, the doctor must discover, the teacher must teach, the musician must make music, the writer must write, the carpenter must build, ad nauseum.

Along with our sense of wonder (i.e., causation, etc.), those things are part of human value systems.

Unfortunately I reject the phenomenologist's obsession with mental phenomena (a rather specific obsession with the usual mental phenomena of typically male, middle-aged or older, above average intelligence, philosophically inclined, neurotypical humans).

I don't get all the fuss about phenomenology. As I said I see no reason to think that values are needed for self-awareness, and values also seem to be largely irrelevant to the Anthropic principle.

Hi Alta!

I'm not quite following you, what are you really trying to say, (other than seemingly, you just don't like something) ?

Are you saying human's don't need value systems for their own sense of survival (i.e.; why/how does one choose to live and not die)?

In that context, what is the Will? Do other animals have will or instinct that drives their survival? And of they have will, can you explain or describe their will to live (empirically or otherwise)?

Among many things, how do we square that circle

Thank you kindly.

Not sure what you mean. The survival instinct is much more primal than value systems and self-awareness. Humans just happen to have all three. In a sense all life can be seen as the embodiment of survival.

[3017Metaphysician]

Alta!

That's a great question. I believe value systems are subordinate to self-awareness. Much like the will to be, over intellect. Meaning, I think self-awareness causes such value systems to come into being which is intrinsic to why people have the desire to go on living. It is important to their way of Being. And that is apparently different from lower level life forms of instinct. In other words, one's own subjective truth would be one example of this distinction between self-aware beings and lower life forms. Lower life forms, of course, would not have the intellect and the reasoning capabilities associated with such higher levels of self-awareness. And those value systems in themselves, are abstract metaphysical features of the mind, much like all the other metaphysical languages and phenom from consciousness we've been discussing... .

Another way of looking at it would be an obvious layman's comparison. Imagine that there were no human lifeforms but instead, just lower level life forms such as plants and animals. The concept of Anthropology itself would not exist. At the very least, you may even say out of logical necessity, that it does exist.

But the existential part of the so-called human condition, as you alluded, is that we cannot escape this need to seek happiness and purpose. Our intentions are to seek out ways to discover and uncover a certain way of Being. That's pretty distinct from ordinary instinct, since the Will itself, provides for such purpose, each person still has to find their own unique way of being-happy. The painter must paint, the scientist must research, the doctor must discover, the teacher must teach, the musician must make music, the writer must write, the carpenter must build, ad nauseum.

Along with our sense of wonder (i.e., causation, etc.), those things are part of human value systems.

Unfortunately I reject the phenomenologist's obsession with mental phenomena (a rather specific obsession with the usual mental phenomena of typically male, middle-aged or older, above average intelligence, philosophically inclined, neurotypical humans).

I don't get all the fuss about phenomenology. As I said I see no reason to think that values are needed for self-awareness, and values also seem to be largely irrelevant to the Anthropic principle.

Hi Alta!

I'm not quite following you, what are you really trying to say, (other than seemingly, you just don't like something) ?

Are you saying human's don't need value systems for their own sense of survival (i.e.; why/how does one choose to live and not die)?

In that context, what is the Will? Do other animals have will or instinct that drives their survival? And of they have will, can you explain or describe their will to live (empirically or otherwise)?

Among many things, how do we square that circle

Thank you kindly.

Not sure what you mean. The survival instinct is much more primal than value systems and self-awareness. Humans just happen to have all three. In a sense all life can be seen as the embodiment of survival.

Hi Alta!

The Will: Will, generally, is the faculty of the mind that selects, at the moment of decision, a desire among the various desires present; it itself does not refer to any particular desire, but rather to the mechanism responsible for choosing from among one's desires. Within philosophy, will is important as one of the parts of the mind, along with reason and understanding.

The Instinct: A largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason. Behavior that is mediated by reactions below the conscious level .

And so Alta, I'm not quite following you, what are you really trying to say, (other than seemingly, you just don't like something [Anthropy]) ?

Are you saying human's don't need value systems for their own sense of survival (i.e.; why/how does one choose [have the Will] to live and not die)?

In that context, what is the Will? Do other animals have will or instinct that drives their survival? And of they have will, can you explain or describe their will to live (empirically or otherwise)?

Does this suggest Anthropy and Phenomenology?

Phenomenology: Is the philosophical study of the structures of experience and consciousness.